PARLIAMENT. [p. 24.]

In the House of Commons, Jan. 16. Mr Duncombe (member for Yorkshire) moved for leave to bring up a petition from his conftituents, for a more equal reprefentation of the people. He fattered himself, that the prefent alarming circumftances of the times would induce many members who were formerly a verfe to any alteration to confider serious ly the danger of difregarding the petitions of the people. Every man of common difcernment must be fenfible of the ruinous effects of a defective reprefentation. Every day's experience fhews a total indifference among members for the fufferings of the great body of the people; they fee taxes multiply, trade decay, and commerce burdened, without emotion; the public intereft neglected; the national wealth diffipated; and the dignity of the throne facrificed to the ambition of daring and desperate men. Could thefe evils happen if the reprefentation of the people were at all proportioned! The extenfive county which he had the honour to reprefent, felt this grievance moft fenfibly; for while the county of Cornwall fends forty-four members to parlia ment, that of York fends only thirty, The freeholders relied upon the virtue of the Rt Hon. Gentleman now at the head of the treasury, for a still more vigorous fupport than he had laft year exerted in

their favour.

Lord North declared, that no event or circumftance had lately happened to induce him to change his mind on the fubject of reform. On the contrary, he was now confirmed in the propriety of his fentiments with regard to any innovation, by the conduct of the Houfe of Com mons within thefe three weeks; a conduct which did them the higheft honour, as it proved them to be (what the advocates for a parliamentary reform had always afferted it was not in nature they could be a body of men zealous for the purity of the conftitution, whom corruption could not warp. It did not appear to him that the defire of parliamentary reform had rapidly increafed. The York thire affociations were fingular in their application. He should not however op. pofe the petition's being prefented.

Mr Powys owned, that this was one of the very few questions in which he agreed with the Noble Lord. As long as the government of the kingdom fhould VOL. XLVI.

remain in the hands of King, Lords, and Commons, he fhould moft certainly join in fupporting the reprefentation in its prefent form; but if ever he should see a fourth estate springing up in the conftitution, he should not only think it his duty to oppofe it, but by every means in his power to root it up.

Mr Burke faid, he was yet to learn in what part of the political system this new planet of a fourth estate was to be difcovered; at prefent it was to him invisible, He read fome paffages from a pamphlet, faid to be written by Mr T. Pitt, now Lord Camelford, which Mr Burke confidered as the cloak which that Seer dropped to his difciples before his translation, not, he faid, to the third heavens, but to a place of reft, as Lord Chesterfield had emphatically called the Houfe of Lords. As to the motion for bringing up the petition, he would not fay a word against it; but with regard to the prayer contained in it he would moft certainly oppofe it whenever it came to be difcuf fed.

The Chancellor of Exchequer obferved, that as there was no oppofition made to the prefent motion, it were needlefs for him to declare himself a friend to it. He had in two feffions endeavoured to bring forward a parliamentary reform. beheld the neceffity of fuch a measure in creafe from day to day, and he should at all times, and on all occafions, be ready to promote it.

He

The question for bringing up the peti. tion was then put, and carried; and Mr Duncombe delivered it to the clerk, who read it; after which Mr Duncombe moved, that it do lie on the table; and the Chancellor of the Exchequer feconded the motion.

Lord Surry thought the freeholders of the county of York had a right to expect fomething more from the Rt Hon. Gentleman, than just barely to move that their petition fhould lie upon the table. His Lordship faid, that he was in York. fhire when the refolutions on which the petition had been grounded paffed. At that meeting, the name of Mr Pitt, who was looked upon as the very foul of that idea, was mentioned by fome gentlemen who pretended to have authority to ufe it, in a manner the most flattering to the warmest wishes of those who proposed the reform. Many of the most refpectable gentlemen in the county of York, however, were not a little disappointed I

whea

when they faw the Rt Hon. Gentleman in the cabinet with perfons who were the declared enemies of that measure. They had been given to underftand, that the Rt Hon. Gentleman was of fuch nice honour, that he would not have fat in the cabinet with perfons who differed from him in that effential point; and they had flattered themselves with fuccefs by having the whole weight of government in their favour.-But fuch was the fluctuating ftate of some mens minds, that for mer opinions were found to give way to new confiderations.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer expreffed his acknowledgements to the reSpectable body of freeholders of the very refpectable county of York for the good opinion they had entertained of him; but he was yet to learn, on what ground, and with what views, an opinion could be propagated in Yorkshire, that he never would fit in the cabinet with perfons hoftile to the idea of parliamentary reform. He believed that fuch were now the difcordant opinions of gentlemen on that fubject, that the man who should form fuch a refolution must be content to abandon the thoughts of ever having it in his power to ferve his country in a ministerial capacity. As to what the Noble Lord had thrown out refpecting other confiderations; he knew of no facrifice that he had made for any confideration. He was still of the fame fentiments as to parliamentary reform which he had ever been, and undoubtedly would fupport it to the utmost of his power; and more, he was fure, that his Lordfhip and his friends, who were fuch ene. mies to undue influence, would not expect from him.

Mr Fox was not difpleafed at the opportunity offered him of acknowledging himself an accomplice with the Rt Hon. Gentleman in endeavouring to promote a parliamentary reform. It had ever been charged as a crime in him of the blackeft dye, that he had coalefced with a man who was a profeffed enemy to the propofed reform; and to fuch a length had the cry of the populace been raised without doors, that when his Majefty honoured him with the feals, and he was fent back to his conftituents on that occafion, his conduct had been contrafted on the bufinefs with that of the Rt Hon. Gentleman, who, it was then said, would not affociate with a man who was known to be an enemy to that measure; nay, at

the time when the coalition first took place, the Rt Hon. Gentleman himself, with no fmall decree of afperity, had reproached him with inconfistency on that very account; yet though he (Mr Fox) had been almoft execrated for fitting in the cabinet in which but one man fat who was hoftile to a reform, the Rt Hon. Gentleman now fat in the fame cabinet where one man only was friendly to it. Mr Fox triumphed not a little in contrafting his own conduct on this subject with that of the Rt Hon. Gentleman; and cautioned him not to plume himself on the confidence the county of York placed in him; for whatever they might have done before his exaltation, they had little reafon, fince that dark tranfac tion had taken place, to pay much regard to the steadiness of his principles.

This defultory converfation was likely to have been carried to a great length, when Mr Baker drew the attention of the House to a fubject of ferious confideration. He said, in this time of rumours, when every wind blew a new one round the town, he had heard one of a very alarming nature. It was a circumftance which might render the fittings of the members of that House quite unneceffary. There were reports of private loans offered to the crown at a time when that Houfe, by a wife precaution, and as a proper check upon the prerogative, had prevented the appropriation of any money by the minifters of the crown, to the fervices voted for the present year, until parliament should have paffed the act ufually proposed towards the end of the feffions, for appropriating the fupply to the different fervices for which it had been voted. [p. 20.]. This put an end to the debate; and the question for the petition to lie on the table was carried without oppofition.

Mr Fox then moved the order of the day for the Houfe to go into a committee on the state of the nation.

Ld Surry begged to know from the Rt Hon. Gentleman on the Treasury-bench, whether he would be pleased to give the Houfe the fatisfaction to inform them, whether a diffolution would take place before the Eaft-India bill fhould be difpofed of, either by being paffed or rejected?

Sir P. J. Clerke infifted on the neceffity of knowing whether parliament was to be diffolved or not? He compared the continual terror of a diffolution to that of a condemned man, having his life dependent

pendent on a reprieve renewed from day to day.

Solicitor General [Arden] hoped his Rt Hon. Friend would give no answer at all to that queftion. He should be forry, he faid, that his country fhould ever have a minifter weak enough to pledge himself not to advife the crown to exercife its juft prerogative whenever the exigences of the ftate might require it. If gentlemen wifhed to diveft the crown of its conftitutional prerogative, let them bring in a bill for that purpose; but furely it would be criminal in minifters to advife the King to refign it voluntarily. Mr Dundas infifted, that, as a minifter, it was impoffible the Rt Hon. Gentle man could answer that question. It was not becoming the minister of the crown to give the Houfe any premature information of what he might fee it neceffary to advife his Majefty to adopt. It was what the Houfe could with no propriety demand. With refpect to what the Hon. Baronet had faid, that this continual threat had operated in the Houfe like a reprieve renewed from day to day to a condemned criminal; he should be glad to be informed when a parliament had any other exiflence than from day to day. If gentlemen would have a perma nent parliament, they muft firft pafs an act for that purpose, and then they need not be beholden to the crown for their continuance.

Gen. Conway faid, that when he heard the friend of the Rt Hon. Gentleman [Mr Banks] declare, before the holidays, that it was not the intention of miniftry to diffolve the parliament, and that the Rt Hon. Gentleman was fo fully convinced of the ill policy of diffolving the parliament, that if that measure were to be carried against him, he would not remain another day in office; he had every poffible reliance that it would not be diffolved on any pretence whatever. He infifted that the House had every right to afk the question, and to have it refolved. Were we no longer to confider the fpeech from the throne as the fpeech of the minifter? This was a novel doctrine referved for these novel times. Was the maxim still to remain in force, that the King can do no wrong; and at the fame time hear it declared that the minifter is not refponfible? Nothing can be more inconfiftent.

Chancellor of Exchequer replied, that his reafon for not giving a direct anfwer

to the question that had been put to him, was, that it was unconflitutional. His opinion was, that it would be improper for him to give in that House, as a private member, explanations for which he was not refponible, of measures, for which, as a minifter, he was refponfible. Mr Fox infifted, that it was perfectly conftitutional to demand an unequivocal answer, to know, whether parliament were to exift or not; otherwife they could not act with effect in any of their proceedings. It was therefore the duty of the House to infift on being fatisfied.

The question being now called and moved, That the fpeaker do leave the chair, it was carried; and the House refolved itself into a committee, “On the state of the nation."

Ld Ch. Spencer opened the debate, by adverting to the two laft refolutions of the committee on the 12th [p. 21.]; to which, fince the minifter had not thought proper to take the hint, he would add another, which should speak fo plainly, that it should be impoffible for him to miftake; he therefore begged leave to move, "That, in the prefent fituation of his Majefty's dominions, it is proper there fhould be an adminiftration that poffeffed the confidence of this Houfe; and that certain new and extraordinary circumftances had attended the appointment of his Majefty's prefent minifers, by no means calculated to conciliate the confidence of this Houfe, &c. their continuance therefore in places of high truft is contrary to conftitutional principles, and fubverfive of the interefts of his Majefty and his people."

Mr Baker feconded the motion. He thought it was high time, that, while we had a conftitution, to endeavour to preferve it. The Houfe had already, in language pretty intelligible, delivered what it thought of the prefent minifters; but, fince they affected not to understand it, it was now become the indifpenfable duty of the committee to speak out to them, and convince them that there was ftill virtue enough in the House of Commons to crufh any fet of men who should prefume to place themselves in the first offices of the ftate by means the most unconftitutional, and have boldness enough to remain there after they had fufficiently understood that the Houfe could not repofe confidence in them, nor commit to them the guardianship of their liberties,

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after

after they had marched over the body of the conftitution, and thus got into power. Befides, a rumour had gone forth, that those who had unconftitutionally grafped at power were to be equally unconftitutionally fupported in it; that a loan of a million was now negotiating, to be employed by minifters, for what purposes may be more easily gueffed than afcertained.

Mr Powys paid many compliments to Mr Pitt and Mr Fox, and wifhed, as they headed two parties, they could be united; but he owned he did not like the ground on which the prefent minifters came into office; yet as they were in, he had rather they fhould not go out. At the head of the third party was a Noble Lord of great abilities, and of great virtues; he mult fay, however, that he now shines with borrowed or reflected light. Of him he would fay, if not laudandus, at leaft ornaudus, tollendus. The Rt Hon. Gentleman Mr Fox and the Noble Lord having thought proper to coalefce, he would not now call upon them to break their union: they were now fo connected with one another, that the difhonour of the one must be the dishonour of the other. He would not therefore tempt them to violate the purity of their engagements. But ftill might not means be found to confolidate matters for the public good? He would acknowledge with the Rt Hon. Gentleman, that the confidence of that Houfe was abfolutely neceffary for the fupport of an adminiftration. But, on the other hand, he fhould expect it would be granted to him in return, that without the confidence of the crown no miniftry could ftand. If both cannot give their confidence to the fame fet of men, what in that cafe ought a minifter to do? Ought he to advife his Majefty to throw himself at the foot of a party? Surely not. If his Sovereign commanded his fer vice, ought he to infult his Majefty by an obftinate difobedience? This too would be a hard trial. He would recommend to the confideration of the Houfe a fair trial. The only measure the minifter had hitherto effected, was highly praifeworthy, and deferved to be univerfally known, and that was, by giving, on the death of the late Sir Edward Walpole, the clerkship of the Pells to Col. Barré, who enjoyed a penfion of 3000l. a-year while he remained out of place, but which was to be faved to the public when that gentleman was put in poffef fion of a place of equal value.

Mr Fox found no difficulty in giving merit its due. The act was noble-it was generous-it was difinterested; but ten thousand fuch acts should not prevent him from voting for the refolutions then before the committee; for let the talents of the Rt Hon. Gentleman be ever fo fplendid, his abilities ever fo fhining, and his virtues ever fo confpicuous, he never could repofe confidence in a minifter who owed his fituation to secret influence. He did not fay he never would act with fuch a minifter; but he never would act with him till, being removed from the fituation he obtained by unconflitutional means, he had made amende honourable for his paft offence.

Sir Richard Hill cautioned the House against corrupt influence, which, he said, was more to be dreaded than fecret influence, as the latter might fometimes prove ferviceable, the former never. One inftance, he said, he remembered recorded in a book, it were better if it were more read, meaning the Holy Bible. There a tranfaction is related of Ahasuerus the King, Haman the minifter, and Mordecai the Jew. The good King had been prevailed upon by Haman, to iffue an edict for the feizing of the rights, properties, and every thing valuable belonging to the Jews, and which had been repeatedly fecured to them by charters and the most folemn acts of state; and all this was to be done, as the artful Haman infinuated, for the good of the King's people. However, before the edict was figned, Mordecai the Jew found his way to Ahasuerus, and having made him acquainted with the defigus of Haman, the rogue Haman was, by the King's command, hanged, as he ought, upon a gibbet thirty feet high. Thus an innocent people were faved from destruction, and juftice was executed on a villain, through the means of fecret influence. But corrupt influence muft ever be bad. What might be the confequence, if it fhould happen that an heir-apparent fhould attend in that Houfe; and during a debate, should by his looks and geftures endeavour to countenance a faction, and influence the votes of members? Might not fuch conduct be conftrued to be a fpecies of corrupt influence?

Lord Melbourne faid, that what the Hon. Baronet had been faying, amounted to a direct attack upon the Prince of Wales, and therefore he would call upon him to adduce his proofs.

Sir Richard Hill replied, that he meant

no attack upon his Royal Highness; he was fpeaking only hypothetically.

Mr Dundas made a powerful fpeech in favour of the minifter. He confidered this refolution in the nature and spirit of an address, requesting the King to appoint a whole new fet of minifters. "I am forced, therefore, (fays he) to view it in this light, fince it is in effect pointed at his Majefty, and must probably be followed up by an address in the fame tenor and to the fame purport. I beg, therefore, the Houfe will go with me in confidering how the royal mind muft feel, and what fort of language his Majefty must hold to himself upon such an addrefs: —“ You send me back the minifters I have just chofen; have I not then the right to chufe my minifters? Certainly yes, you fay. But what crimes have they committed? What is it they have fo foon perpetrated? Certainly not one act of their adminiftration is yet paf. fed. Are they, therefore, without the confidence of the House of Commons? Are they men fo unpopular, fo incapable, fo infufficient, that you will not bear with them even for a moment? Is the minister who devotes himself to the House of Commons particularly, fo unpopular, and fo incapable. I had chofen him, I had singled him out as a man, of talents the most astonishing, of integrity the most uncorrupt, of a reputation the moft extraordinary. I had fondly ima. gined him the favourite of the Houfe of Commons; I had been taught to fancy, that in celebrating his name, all my people joined in one anthem of praife. Is it for this therefore that the Houfe of Commons thus inftantly condemns him? Is it on account of his fair fame and his unexampled reputation, that I am defired to withdraw my public confidence from fuch a perfon as this? It follows, no doubt, therefore, that you with me to fubftitute characters as oppofite as poffible to this? You with me then to name fome man or men, in whom I can place no confidence; fome man or men, whom my people execrate, and in whom I myfelf, in perfect unifon with my people, cannot confide. If fuch men are to be my only choice, if unpopularity, hatred, and diftruft are to be the qualifications, and the great characteristics that form a minifter in thefe days, it would be matter of the fincereft joy to me, if the House of Commons would permit me to wave my choice: let the House of Commons name their minister; let them

fearch out perfons fuited to their purposes, only let me not be forced to play the farce of naming to them men whom they have fingled out, whom my conscience condemns on public grounds, and whom my people tell me they do not approve."-Such (Mr Dundas continued) would be the natural anfwer of a king, allowing him to be a man of feeling, and a man of honour, like ourfelves, on fach an unheard of addrefs as this; juft this neceffarily must be his private fentiments and foliloquy on the occafion. There fore, fays he, I would befeech the House of Commons at once to name the mea in whom alone they are determined to confide. Already we know their names. Let us bring in a bill naming the Rt Hon. Gentleman and the Noble Lord exclufive minifters of this country for a term of years; for that is precifely the fpirit and meaning, that, Sir, is the plain English of this retolution; except indeed that by the prefent motion the House of Lords is exempted from any fhare in the nomination; whereas, if it was a bill, it would not be the House of Commons alone that would name the minister of this country. Sir, I have no perfonal objections or dislike to the Noble Lord or the Rt Hon. Gentleman; it is upon clear conftitutional grounds that I refift this vote; and I call upon the independent part of the House, that they will ftand forth and maintain the character, the moderation, for thus, I will venture to fay, they will moft effectually maintain the true confequence, of this British Houfe of Commous. Let the House look well to its conduct this night, for this night it is about to decide what is the constitution of this country. The affumption of power and privileges which did not belong to it, has once proved the overthrow of this conftitution. We are verging towards the fame precipice again; we are claiming to ourselves the right of appointing minifters; and we are difclaiming the nomination of his Majefty, without caure and without trial."Mr Dundas added a few observations refpecting the attendance of a great perfonage in the House of Commons, and hinted, by an hypothefis, if on any occafion fuch perfonage should teftify, by his behaviour or gefticulation in the House itself, any partiality to any particular party of men in the Houfe, fuch marks of partiality might ferve as a means of influence, and would not be perfectly becoming.

Lord