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The TRIAL of LORD VISCOUNT MEL

VILLE.

(Continued from p. 464.)

Mr ALEX. TROTTER'S evidence continued.

MR

R TROTTER stated, that though not form lly appointed as private agent to Lord Melville, yet he acted as such, and received his pay as Treasurer of the Navy, the rents of his estates in Scotland, and other sums. He kept an account between himself and Lord Melville in a small book, of which Lord Melville was frequently furnished with a copy. The first item of debt in that account, according to the best of his recollection, was a sum of 4000l furnished his Lordship in the year 1982. For that sum he took a bond, but not interest. The fund which furnished this 4000l. was public money, which was not likely to be soon called for. In this account he gave Lord Melville credit for all the sums he received on his account. In the year 1793, he directed a purchase of 1000l. India stock to be made on account of Lord Melville. He paid for this stock with money which he had in Coutts's hands, and which he had previously drawn from the Bank. The di vidends of this stock, he believed, were car. ried to the credit of Lord Melville.

About the year 1797, 10,000l loyalty loan was subscribed for in the name of Lord Melville; the payments were made by Coutts's house, and he repaid Coutts from his mixed fund of public and private money.

The dividends of that loan were carried to the credit of Lord Melville's account.

Besides the account current, the witness said he kept another account with Lord Melville, called " the chest account." The first item of which account was the 10,cool. which Lord Melville said he would account for at the witness's first coming into office. The 10,000l. loyalty loan was afterwards transferred to this chest account.--The account was delivered to Lord Melville with a charge upon the chest account, but he never said any thing about it-in fact, he did not know that his Lordship ever looked into the account. The chest account, as well as the other, was settled when Lord Melville left office, and all the balances due both to him individually, and to the public, were paid off.

Q. Did you give directions, in or about the year 1789, or 1790, for the purchase of another sum of East India stock for the benefit of Lord Melville ?-A. I will state the transaction as far as my memory enables me. It was in consequence of a conversation I had with his Lordship, in July 1806.

which he stated the probable rise of East India stock, and I observed to his Lordship that if he was impressed with so good an opinion of that stock, I thought he ought to invest a sum of money in it. His Lordship's observation seemed to throw it aside, by saying he had no money to invest in stock. I then mentioned to his Lordship that there were considerable balances in my hands not called for, and in all proba→ bility would not be called for, and I advised his Lordship to give me leave to lay out so much as would purchase 13,000l. or 14,000l. East India stock, but which his Lordship refused in the most positive manner, iasomuch that I feared I had incurred his Lordship's displeasure in proposing it. But it occurred to me, at the same time, that it would be possible to borrow a šum of money upon the security of that stock, and I proposed to his Lordship that I should endeavour to do so, and that I should lay out that money in the purchase of East India stock, to which his Lordship readily assented. I mentioned that I then Hved with a relation of my own, who was a man of considerable importance in the city, and that he would raise this money for me. But when I applied to Mr Lind, the Gentleman alluded to, I found that I was deceived, and that it was not an easy matter to raise the money upon that secu rity. But I was unwilling to disappoint his Lordship in what I had told him I could effect, and I never acquainted his Lordship with the difficulty that had arisen, but I assisted Mr Lind by advancing him money from the public money, which I had the management of. I never had occasion afterwards to mention the circumstance to Lord Melville until April last year, and he was perfectly unacquainted with my having made use of the public money in that transaction; and I charged his Lordship a regular interest for the whole of the money which I advanced, from the first day it was advanced until the final settlement of our accounts. The sum thus advanced, the witness stated to be about 23,000l. which was reduced by a payment of 3000l. and at their final settlement 20,000l. went to pay off the remainder of the purchase-money, and 8ocol. increased value went in diminution of his account current with the defendant. The book in which he kept the chest account current, he stat ed to be destroyed, with all other books and vouchers relative to the transactions between the witness and Lord Melville.

CROSS-EXAMINED.-Q. Whether Lord Melville did not in the conversation about the 10,000l. which he was debtor, say that it was not applied to any use or emolu

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ment of his own, but for a public purpose on which there might be a loss? A. I do

to the installments upon the loyalty loan, that he satisfied

@not recollect it so much as to say he di- Lord M. and them without consulting

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rectly stated it was for public purposes; tobut it is a very distant period, and it is not 5 impossible he did. 19 dourad

QHave you the least recollection that mLord Melville acknowledged he applied it to any purposes of private benefit to himselfit Av None The witness again stated, that the whole management of the Paymaster's Office was always left to the Paymaster, and the whole management of the public money was left to the witness, while he was Paymaster.

QYou stated that permission was given by Lord Melville to draw money from the Bank of England to Coutts's bank, whether the only reason represented by you to Lord Melville for that

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not to facilitate official convenience ?—A. Entirelyso; I always stated the convenience that would arise and the greater security of the money. The Navy, Office, was about that time removed from Broad-street to Somerset House, and they were obliged to send common messengers to bring large sums of money from the bank. No other reason was ever mentioned to Lord Melville. With respect to Lord Melville's private accounts, although he gave him copies, yet he was sure Lord Melville never's looked into them, for he could never draw him to a consideration of his own private accounts.

Q. The first purchase you speak to was 20001. East India stock, whether, after the documents you have seen, you have now any memory or recollection upon the subject? A Is recollect generally that Lord Melville wanted to be possessed of a further qualification of East India stock, and begged me to procure it for him, but whether he told me he would immediately repay me the money, I do not immediately recollect 100 ob 1-fyysi ady to ran

Q. Whether upon that occasion, or any other, Lord Melville ever directed you to lay out any part of the public money, for the use and benefit of Lord Melville? As He nevery did, under the specific name of publicpmoney, or any money bearing that description,(dansblenog

Q.Is there any instance in which, prior to the purchase of any stock, it was mentioned to Lord Melville by you, that it was intended to be purchased out of the public money, except in the instance of the purchase of East Jadia stock? A. Never, to best of my recollection.

QAre you to be understood to state, that in the only instance when the proposal was made, it was indignantly rejected-A. I mean so to be understood, with respect

he had securities of Lord

M. in his hands sufficient to cover the advances. With respect to the purchase of the 7000l. 3 per cent. reduced, the witness stated, he made it in the general management of Lord Melville's affairs. He believed a sum of money had come to his hand at this t time for his Lordship, and he thought it was proper to invest it in some manner to produce interest to his Lordship. communication was ever made his Butt the witness probably mentioned it when he presented the ac count to him. As to whether, in the transsicpurchase of the East India stock,

Noordship,

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be mentirifle Neon Montague Lindand knew that any other 5 person had advanced the money For some years Lord Melville was a losery as of the purchase fiboney exceed. ed the dividends. Lord Melville had no reason whatever to know that it was purchased with the public moneyqe sd bib

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Q. You have said as to the use of the public money emonty removed from the Bank to Messrs. Coutts's, that it was your own benefit ? Certainly, I made use of that part which I found was not likely to be claimed, for my own profits. as boy of Q. In what mode was that made use of? A. Generally, by lending it at interest; at other times by investing it in Navy and Exchequer bills, or other government securities, Q. Were the

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2. Was any intimation of knowledge ever communicated to Lord Melville of the public money having been so used ?A. I never made any such communication to Lord Melville. The witness in subsequent answers stated, that during the time Lord Melville was in office, 120 millions passed through his hands, while these transac tions were going on, 15 on, and that the public rvice never suffered the least loss, disadvantage, or interruption, in consequence of these transactions, and that nothing occurred which might lead the attention of Lord Melville to these matters. The release, he stated, was prepared and executed by him in London. The clause for destroying vouchers was was suggested by himself, and not by Lord Melville være money on his acing public private mon in

counts, was without the knowledge of Lord Melville, as were also his dealings 97sbiens I-9208 Wark Sprott. bond, stated to have been given An as to sbutingem alls ar

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vanced to Lord Melville; or on his account, that was afterwards carried to othe chest account ?—I never did, because it never interfered with the convenience of the office, as a much greater sum than doord Melville ever commanded under these circumstances, might have been spared from the unclaimed balances. 20 y

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any given authority vesting him with the Had the Treasurer of the Navy himself power of controuling your private monies, or the securities taken by you on account of these private or public monies?None.

for 4000l. in an early part of your connection with the Treasurer of the Navy, given up or kept by you? I believe it was given up and destroyed. It is so many years ago that I do not recollect exactly what be› came of it; I believe it was given up. aid Upon what occasion was it given to Lord Melville? From payments having been made upon that accounts did not which exceeded that soool, in which case think proper to keep the bond. id&Was the e account stated and balanced accurately at the precise time at which the hond was given up? I believe if it was not; If all the money had been, according to I do not recollect that it was. the directions of the 25th of the King, and canbaby ads to aci, se Is the Court to understand that the ac- such an improbable event taken place count current of a sum, in which acc as the failure of the Bank, should you have that bond, applied, and which sum formed considered yourself responsible for the mo the first item of that account, was still an ney so left in the Bank of England accordopen account current at the time the bonding to the act of Parliament? I should was given up I believe it was. UH When Lord Melville gave or orders or directions to you to pay money on his account

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**And if Mess. Coutts should have become insolvent, should you have considered yourresponsible for the use of the sum lost

did he specify at all out of what fund that sell Failure? I confess I should, tho'

money was to be paid? I do not recollect any instances in which his Lordship so spea cified.

38d': Did Lord Melville, by any words or any
+ mode, suggest, or in any way ever convey
to you an intimation, that he wished a cer.
tain sum of money advanced to him, should
be debited to him in his account current?
I can only speak in general terms, as dif-
ferent circumstances would of course attend
different payments upon that account, and
in speaking ould
those general terms, I say,
his Lordship w probably enter into an
explanation of monies which he expected
to receive soon, and under that impression
she requested me to accommodate him with
a sum; they seldom were large sums until
such times as payments came into his hands.
I only speak that in general terms.

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I looked upon the circumstance as impossi-
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Supposing such a very improbable event as the failure of Coutts house had taken place, had youatthat timeany fortune of your own, by which you might have made good such a sun )-T That depends entirely upon the balance that was in Mr Coutts hands at that time.

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Supposing the balance had amounted to 50,000l. had you any probability of repaying it? Until very late years I had not a fortune that could have made good that loss of late years I could, as my fortune exceeds it by perhaps ro,cool or 15,000l. and no more to mousseng

What was your fortune, independent of your salary, at the time of your appoint

surer of the Navy ?-I do not recollect accurately, but certainly not great; not per

- When such request had been conveyedment to the office of Paymaster to the Treato you, to which of these two accounts you have stated to be opened between Lord Melville and yourself, was that money de-haps exceeding iscol, or odole i bited? The account current.

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DaWas there any other mode of application
described in the way I before described to
you, when Lord Melville wished it to be
debited to, any other account ?-1
can
this question also only answer in general
terms; his Lordship generally required
such a sum of money should be paid, with
But coming to any explanation with me at
all upon the subject

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Was that requisition, which You are now to alluding to, in the nature of a command from Lord Melville to you for that purpose?—I considered it as such. D SVI Didyou ever make any remonstrance up

Have you had any great accumulation of fortune by any event independent of your situation as Paymaster of the Navy?

have had considerable acquisitions by inheritance; considerable in proportion to my fortune, altho' it may not be so in the eyes of many people. I suppose somewhere between 6000l. and 70cold of beron 943 Is that the extent of your accumulation of fortune, independent of what you derived in one way or other from the Navy Pay Office?I also had an acquisition of fortune, about 3000l. upon my marriage in 7971 2 ustw sonsteni ya

Are you in possession of any landed proon the magnitude of any any sum that was ad-perty amorezabit ad 03 08 88977 1

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Is Lord Melville acquainted with that I believe he is, to cat Was he acquainted with that fact at the time the acquisition of landed property took place, or thereabouts? I purchased my land at four or five different times; I do not know that his Lordship was acquainted with each purchase.

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Was Lord Melville generally acquainted that you had become a man of landed property in Scotland? I presume he was; for although it is not a great purchase, yet it is not so insignificant, as to have escaped his Lordship's notice.

What do you conceive to be the amount of your property at this moment? I had oc casion,about a year ago, to make up a state. ⚫ment of my property; and at that time I va Jued it at what I considered to be a very fair valuation, at about 51,000 or $2,0001; but it was so invested, as not to produce me an income of more than 12001. per ann.

per ann.

Did that increase take place before Lord Melville left the office in the year 1800? It took place at the very time I believe..

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I held navy bills at the time they came to a discount.

Did you borrow a sum of of money, for the purpose of making official payments at the time that navy bills were so at a discount, that you might keep those bills unsold? As I conceived it to be immaterial whether I paid the public drafts by money taken out of one pocket, out of another, certainly borrowed money at the found I could not sell my navy bills with out a loss.

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When Mr Bathurst gave direc you, as Paymaster, to rentove t the cash Mr Coutts's to the Bank, did you remonstrate upon that subject? I never made, any objection to Mr Bathurst's I certainly took the liberty to argue upon st's orders, but the subject chi Were the balances actually due by Lord Melville to you u upon the account current, and the balance due upon the chest account paid to you by Lord ville? I believe, the whole of them paid to Could you specify at ecify at all, in what man

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Has the salary of the Paymaster of the Navy been increased considerably since you were originally appointed to it? It has To what amount? To the sum of 8ooler they were paid to you? I have e consi Jaundered the subject very much lately, from that consideration I am a am able to speak? Having the power of selling the whole of his Lordship's stocks, I directed them to be sold, and they were accordingly sold, or else the price of the day was allowed me, and paid into the credit of my account Mr Coutts's. They were paid into the credit, I believe, of Lord Melville's account, at Mr Coutts's. If I documents to speak from. I could make y statement If the Honourable Manager, 1973 who is perfectly acquainted with the citi cumstance, will ask me upon each indivi dual sum, I shall perhaps be able to state ups

Did it take place at the time, or immediately after Lord Melville left the office I do not know whether the first payment of my salary commenced before or after.

Did it take place before the first of January 1800? I believe not....

Did the Sub-Accountants, upon your taking your seat, come with the balances regularly to you in the course of the of fice, with signed lists, coming from the Navy Board for each day? They generally did so, but not uniformly.

Was it their ordinary routine of duty so to do? It was. majas skinud

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Do you recollect so far as that a sum of 20,000l. was paid into y your hands, on Sas account of Lord Melville, by Mr Sprott 20 It was paid either into my hands, or by Mr. Sprott, into the credit of Lord Melville's account at Mr Coutts's.

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Did you continue in your office liable to be called upon by any sub accountant, to whom you had not issued a sufficient sum in the morning, till the hour at which the Was another sum, of about 30,0001, paid payment ceased in the Navy Pay-Office? into your hands on account of Lord Me!- no: either remained myself, or left some persville, by Mo not think thesi

son authorised to carry on that part of my duty.

Did any interruption or hindrance take place to the business of the office, after the money was taken back from Mess. Coutts's to the Bank? I foresaw that a hindrance might occur, and I took care to obviate it, by granting the balances fuller than I might have done at Mr Courts's boue ger

Was any pay ever delayed for a moment by the money being at the Bank do not recollect any instance of it, wat da Do you recollect that you were holder of a certain quantity of navy bills at the me when they fell to a discount? I believe

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Hon. Manager
rect; that

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was paid into the credit of my account at Mr Coutts's, being the produce of the sale of East India stock which I mentioned yesterday, by which a debt was paid off which existed. upon that stock of 20,000l. the surplus of it went to the credit of Lord Melville's account curtent with me. W Japli

What became of it after it passed thro the accounts current with you? I always paid that money into the Bank, in liquidation of balances I had 'out of the Bank.

Do you know any one instance where you did not credit Lord Melville, as an honest

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honest man ouglit to do, for the money you received on his account? His Lordship was most undoubtedly credited, but if a sum of money had been paid into my hands, with directions to pay to himself again, these are exceptions.

Coutts's? I do not know any loss that the 23 W Luther por shiv.SM 3154 11 public have sustainedu bemisupa 92.25

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of Messrs Couttsam siliviaMb 25 Could that loss have happened if money had continued to be lodged in the Bank? That circumstance could not have been affected by the money being continued in the Bank.

Do you know whether the public did not sustain a loss by the death of Mr Jelnîand how that loss arose That was not a loss in consequence of having removQuestion by Managers. The questioned the money from the Bank to the house asked by the Learned Counsel was, whether upon that occasion, or upon any other, Lord Melville ever directed you to lay out any part of the public money in your hands, for the use and benefit of Lord Melville? to which the answer was, you never did under the specific name of public money, or any money bearing that description; whether you received any directions in any way from Lord Melville, which led you to know that Lord Melville meant the public mo

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Whether the account called the Iron Chest account, was principally of a public nature The Iron chest account was an account sofumonies which were drawn from the Bank, and placed into the hands

Melville knew that it was of Messrs. Coutts's+7
was to be so paid I

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Having said that my Lord Melville paid cannot swear so. negg wub spark de a great deal more attention to accounts that Did Lord Melville, make any inquiry, oftwere public than to his own private acyou after the indignant, refusal which he counts, what kind of attention did he pay

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to him to the proposition made by you to this Iron Chest account? I do not know

employ a certain sum of money

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in the purchase of East India stock did Lord Melville, when he either requested er required money to be advanced to him by you, did ever he ask you, in any one instance, whether your own private funds would supply that source? I do not recollect that his Lordship ever did. As to inquiring into the particular state of my own private funds, I do not think Lord Melville ever did.

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Did he ever make any inquiry of you, whether, in making such advances, you were trenching upon the public balances? He never did.

You stated that the, chest account was regularly delivered to Lord Melville? It was at different periods, but not so fre quently as I delivered the account current.

Were any objections ever made by Lord Melville upon your delivering the chest account to him? Lord Melville never exa mined my accounts, in my presence, so minutely as to enable him to make ob jections. ...... ...... ... ཨ ཛཱ॰ Did he ever in fact object to them? He never did. ADST Are we

e correct in supposing that the loyalty, loan money was transferred from the account current to the chest account? It was. fing cow Whether Lord Melville was not credited for the dividends upon the loyalty loan up to the period at which that loan was sold ?w I believe he was.

Examined by the Lords.

Whether you know that the public sustained any loss by the removal of the money from the Bank of England to Messrs

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what attention Lord Melville paid to that account when he had the documents in his possession, but he never paid any particular attention to it during the time I was with his Lordship, when I had presented it to-hinter 109 9.17 18

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Having said that, when you delivered the private accounts to Lord Melville, the accounts between you and Lord Melville, his Lordship was not in the course of investigating those accounts, or comparing the vouchers with them, if a complete investigation of those accounts had taken place between Lord Melville an and you, would it not then have appeared, that the monies in that account were monies advanced out of the public monies.' I apprehend it wouldre, to anacox yamb to fu

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When the application was made to Lord Melville, upon the subject of the purchase of East India stock, was any reference made to the current price of that stock at that time I do not recollect any reference made to the current price at that time, further than by a comparison to what his Lordship expected twould be the rise that stock would ultimately arrive at, at a distant time; that was the only time Lord Melville ever gave me his opinion upon the vahue of it and at no tinie whatever did his Lordship ever insinuate to me, in the smal Jest degree, his expectations of the rise or fall of the stack, excepting in that instance.

You have said, that for a considerable length of time, after the purchase of this stock, the interest of the money which was borrowed for the purchase of it, amounted to a greater sum than the dividends arising from that stock, whether any person lending money in the ordinary course of dealing by

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