098 87597 9vil za tot tuode Bank and put into Mr Coutts's and obice versa, the sums drawn from Coutts'sirand issued to the sub-accountants.i doidw duw venom to muz sto noises-209 digugaw money lenders, would diave considered the assignment of such stocks putting it in the nature of the lender, as a collateral security for the money advanced for that stock? -The question was objected to.1 os mortia 19 How and in what manner was that goool. your spoke to in your examination, repaid? -I can only recollect that it was repaid by his Lordship to me at two different times, and in two different sums1916 MO18040 Did you give any receipt to Lord Mel ville for that money which he paid you?I did notov to amit size Having stated that in the account be tween Lord Melville and you, Lord Mel ville was credited for the dividends upon the India stock, and debited for the interest of the money lent, in whose name was that receipt put ? No inanie was used at all, his Lordship got credit by the divis dends, and was debited for the interest, without any name being specified.no Supposing Lord Melville had not reject ed, as he did with indignation, the propo sition you made of advancing, to Lord Melville the public money, as the means of purchasing that stock, ing what manner would it have been debited in the course of business? As the fact did not exist, I have never given it any consideration, soy Would it have been debited, in the manper in which it was debited all should not make any gentry of any sort without a due consideration, and I cannot, in my present situation, give it a due consideration. W You stated, that after Lord Melville had rejected the proposal that you made, to purchase India stock out of the public money, you suggested to Lord Melville that you could procure the money from your relation Mr Lind, upon the security of that stock; that failing to procure the money, you stated notwithstanding to Lord Mel ville, that you had so procured it, and the stock was in fact purchased, as I understand you, in the name of Mr Lind; whether L. Melville was acquainted with the circum. stance of the stock having been so purchased in the name of Mr Lind Lord Melville knew that the stock stood in the name of Mr Lind, but I have never told Lord Melville that I had actually assisted Mr Lind to advance the money.990 3 1912 In the course of the transaction of the purchase of this stock between you and Lord Melville, was that transaction so conducted as if the money had been bona fule advanced for the purchase of that stock by Mr. Lind. It was.qas nd blow tierso What do y you mean by the Iron Chest Account? That was an account that was kept in the Navy Pay Office by Mr Wilson and myself, in which we entered the sums of money that were taken from the What is it that you mean by chest ac count? The chest account was one of those accounts which I kept with Lord Melville, upon which I had been required to advance sums, of the application of which I knew nothing a les 01 silivieM brod 451* What was the first item of the Chest Accdunto? It was the sum of 10,bool: avio : Were there other advances upon the face of that Chest Account immediately after the opening of it herey were others advans cedvupon that account, but not immediately after the opening of it.Tilts to geceler 16:1 You have said, that late the close of Lord Melville's treasurership, you showedoto Lord Melville the sum advanced to shim from the public money ;ɔite is desireɖide know if Lord Melville explained to yo from what sources that money was to be repaid fuel have said that I gave a genet ral statements of Lord Melville's accounts between his Lordship and onlyself, and he commonlyla pointed out different sources from which money would arise in repay! ment of these sums; and which he expres sedias wish to repay before he left the trea surership.oed brim ym bus,noitwaske otmi Whether Lord Melville expressed any surprise at the state of his accountie He did; he was very much surprised to find the balance was so much against himoqo1q Having stated that you conceive that no loss or detriment accrued to the public by drawing the money from the Banks and putting it in the hands of private bankers; state whether withdrawing so large à sum of money from the Banky would not put it less in the power of the Bank to make those discounts, on which the trading part of the public depend?al do not know how far it would be proper for me to enter into an argument fon that subject with their Lordshipsbro iw notes bus nois The question was objecsed tog and wavedpond nead end ties 9m os bettimur Having stated that you alone derived the benefit from sapplication of oa part of the public money, whether, without the application of the public money you have stated, you would have been in the condition to have made the adyances you have stated you made to Lord Melville swithout char gingoany interest? I could not, unless finding that lo had not the means of augmenting my fortune in the manners, is did, I might have turned my attention elsewhere, and then I might have been able to chave advanced these moniessey-s door to yISLE At what period of time did you begin building your house near Edinburgh? As nearly as I can recollect, I made a consider able able addition to my house, which I began about four or five years ago. Is that house furnished? removed the furniture from my house at Blackheath, with which it is now furnishedarfs of Bonesi Were you rever interrogatedeiby Lord Melville as to the expence of building this house? The expence of building this house may not be so great as the Noble Lords may have heard, nor so great! aso torine duce Lord Melville to ask me any ques tion upon that subjecten sda zow to W Give to the Court an account of the whole transaction sconcerning the release; and, in giving to the Court the whole of that transaction, begins with stating what was then occasion or mecessity for having that release at all? The necessity originated in my wish to have all my affairssettled with Lord Melvilley asof always apprehended, I hope I may be allowed to say, that his Lordship was not so careful of preserving his pa persoorbaccounts asivto be satisfactory rtó heirs or successors ; and that there might being difficulty or argument about shews ing that a final settlement had been made to either his Lordship's heirs or my own, was anxious that release should pass, by which it only became necessary that one voucher should be preserved had proposeds it some time before it was wearried into execution, and my mind became every day still more impressed with the necessity of having this executed lands in some conversation with his hordship I may have proposed it again, and told him that I would forwards releases for this Lordship, to be signed in Scotland, if he would give me leave that this state more from knowing that that must have been the circumstance, than from amactual recollection of the time or place when such conversation passed: 14 themapplied to my solicitor in London to draw out a release for such purposes and as he was my intimate friend and counsel lor, as well as solicitor, he proceeded very much from his own knowledge of my situ ation and connection with Lord Melville in drawingoup that releases the draft was submitted to me, as it has been brought to my recollection by the Hot Managers, whol have possessed themselves of that draft, otherwise I had forgot the circum stance.svBitd find that hadd seem that draft, by several words being written omit inmy own hand-writing it was afterwards brought to me by Mr Spottiswoode, fairly copied out, and, to the best of my recollec tion, forwarded by me too his Lordship in Scotland, and he returned it to me, by which the transaction was finally closedverdim How soon after being in possession tofna salary of 500l. a-year, did you find yourself to be in a condition tobeadender of money? 4 daudaibe 1690: 92001 Toy guiblind 120100 abor: 1.Ballacɔ7 noien ylic90 •A I explained to this Court yesterday, that I was put in possession of a sum of money as soon as bawas appointed to the office by which I was enabled to become madent. der of money. a 25 asbasisdi to stutem You have stated that you made a propos sition to Lord Melvilles which shis shardship indignantly rejecteddw Did you ever make any such proposition, more than that one time? I never didelio vino Did Lord Melvilles evero allude to that proposition afterwards Podomov recollect that his Lordship ever did. svig sov bid ---Did Lord Melville ever say any thing to you subsequent to the time of your having made thats proposition, from whence you collected supposition on the part of his Lordship, that you were so using the publie money? Never. b 60s, 25 Dosyou know the date of the appoint ment of the Naval Commissioners? I do not sus vd sbu. Do you recollect at what time, or within a month of the time, when the return was made to the Commissioners of Naval Inquiry, requiring the balances of the Navy Pay Office That return was made believe, in the month of January 1803 € but the precept had been issued many months before, I believesed svar i bluow How soon was that return made before you gave directions for the execution of the released? A very short time, I believe. Had the knowledge of that return any effect on your mind in procuring the res lease? I believe it had. ions (accaroteens>> Whether, at the time that you received permission from Lords Melville & tou draw the public money from the Bank,band to place it, in your own name, in the hands of Messrs. Courts-whether, either at the time you received that permission, or any subsequent time, you received any injunc tion from his Lordship not to apply any part of that money to your own use? I received no such injunction ; but I received nos prohibition ; I mean I received no such permission to do so. to siren adtri Having stated that the intimation which you had received from the Commissioners had an operation upon your mind whet you directed the release tas be prepared, was that fact or circumstance, to your know ledge, communicated to Lord Melville; 1 mean the operation of that upon your mind? 4dol not recollect that ever stated any thing upon that subject to Lord Melville q Do you know whether any other person ever stated to Lord Melville, thas onfada count of that transaction with the Commis. sioners, it would be expedient that stich á deed as this should be executed? No Such fact consists with my knowledge. JaroɔɔA How long was it after the adyaylad sdi benetus gw bidw ni Alsayın brisheen 91 mei п9dc1 919W 18 y90oin to ease been placed at Coutts's, that you first began to employ it in the various ways in which you have stated you did employ it for your private use and benefit? I believe I had begun to employ it before it had gone there; there was no interruption that I know of. Who was it that suggested to you the propriety of keeping a chest account? It was merely giving a name to an account I found necessary to raise in debiting Lord Melville with that 10,000l. which I found not in the Bank, when I succeeded Mr. Douglas as Paymaster. Why did you intitle it a Chest Account? I recollect nothing of the circumstance; but, if I may be allowed to suppose it, I should rather think that Lord Melville desired me to raise an account, and to call it a Chest Account. You have been stating, that you advanced the money with which the India Stock was purchased, although it stood in the name of Mr Lind, whether you received from Mr Lind any security for that East India Stock purchased in his name, with your money? I received an acknowledge ment to that purpose. Did that acknowledgement state for whom the purchase was made? It did not, at least it did not mention Lord Melville's but name, my own. Whether, if the speculation had succeeded, Lord Melville had any means of getting at this money, especially if you were dead? I am free to say it never entered my consideration. Did Lord Melville explain to you that the sum of 10,000l. was public money?→ He did not explain it to me, there was no pecessity for that, for I knew it to be so. Whether any person except yourself in the Navy Pay-Office received any advan tage, directly or indirectly, from the use of the public money I believe that some of the sub-accountants have derived some small advantages, but I am not acquainted with them; I can speak to nothing but my own transactions. The witness was directed to withdraw. Sir Stephen Cottrel then proved from the Council Register, the order for the re-. gulation of the Navy Pay-Office; and also the memorial of Mr Dundas, on which it was founded, wherein he states, that "his duty to his Majesty and to the public had actuated him to give an attentive consideration to the whole conduct and establishment of the office; and, in full persuasion of being able to execute the business of it in a manner consistent with the late regulations, he most humbly presumes to submit for his Majesty's approbation, an arrangement of the whole, calculated upon principles of real economy, and formed upon a system to ex pedite with dispatch the various branches of the department entrusted to his charge." Mr Morris." On the part of the Managers of the Commons, I propose now to call witnesses to shew out of what funds the monies in question were paid, and how they were applied. We shall shew that the public monies in the hands of Mr Trotter were applied to the advantage of Lord Melville, inasmuch as they operated to reduce the sums he had overdrawn from some pri. vate bankers with whom he had accounts. Mr Robert Trotter was sworn. He said that he was brother to Alexander Trotter ; in 1787, he received directions from his brother to pay money for account of Lord Melville into the hands of Sir William Forbes and Co. and of Mansfield, Ramsay, and Co. of Edinburgh. He believed the amounts were 1000l. to the one, and Soool. to the other. Sir Wm. Forbes being called, said, that Lord Melville kept an account with the banking-house with which he was connected at Edinburgh; that the account was overdrawn ; and that it was their custom to charge interest in such cases. 3000l. was received through the hands of Mr Robert Trotter, on his Lordship's account, to reduce the charge against it. On his cross-examination, he said that all his correspondence with Lord Melville had been transmitted to the Managers of the House of Commons from the year 1784 to 1800. Mr James Mansfield sworn. He said he was a banker at Edinburgh, and that it was the custom with the Scottish banking houses not only to charge interest for overdrawing, but also to allow iuterest of 3 per cent. in favour of a customer on a current account; and more interest was conceded when any sum remains permanently in the hands of a banker. The Right Hon. Henry Dundas was one of the customers of the house, and he was indebted to it in 1787. The accounts of the house were transmitted to the agent of Lord Melville, Mr Alexander Trotter; vouchers were received, signed by the Right Hon. Henry Dundas himself. The witness being about to speak to a payment of 25,000l. advanced by Mess. Coutts to his house, under the firm of Mansfield, Ramsay, and Co. on account of Lord Melville, Mr Plomer objected, on the ground that the witness was not deposing to facts within his own knowledge. Mr Whitbread My Lords, we have the original letter of Mr Robert Trotter, relating to that transaction, and we will prove it.” To be continued. PRO TAX ON PRIVATE BREWING. IN Committee of Ways and Means, 4 hard Henry Petty brought forwardia substitute for the tax soned pig iron, which he said he would relinquish, from the strong opposition it had met with. On giving an attentive consideration to those Objects, which prontised to be productive, and were likely to fall the lightest upon those who were to be immediately subject to the impost, he considered private, brewing as one of the fairest. The private brewer, not withstanding he paid the duty on Malt, shad-stilit considerable advantage over the public bretend Private brewing was carried on to such an extent, and produced so a saving to those Who it, that lessened duties paid by the public brewers; the adopted it g 1 : the 379ed I eli way of beteggyla Jaris si ew of W Every family paying the duty on a he, therefore, conceived the country to brew for themsel who may choose be exempt. had a right to look to the private The number of persons liable to this brewer as a fair subject of taxation, but tax, he calculated upon the following at the same time, the tax he proposed scale-First class, 12,000; second class, would be so moderate as still to leave -50,000; third cless, 360,000; fourth the object of it in possession of consider class, 320,000. All persons who were Table advantages. It was difficult to averse to the exciseman's visits would obtain any precise data upon which to avail themselves of the modification he calculate with exactless: but to take proposed, and by delivering in their the best he could find, viz. the malt lists, according to the foregoing scale, charged with the malt duties, it appear-enable the collector to ascertain their ed, that 750,000 quarters were consum- respective proportions without farther ed by the private brewer, which, rated trouble to themselves. in the scale he was about to propose, "This tax was likewise objected to by would produce about 500,000l. The Mr Rose, Mr Giles, Sir R. Buxton, and scales of taxation was estimated from Sir C. Pole. The latter suggested, as the most reasonable calculation upon a succedaneum, a tax on the race of the probable consumption of each fami- strapping six foot high Mem Milliners, and their respective rank and abili-who crowd the shops in town. Mr ties in life; but, undoubtedly, as it Sheridan highly approved of this sugwas the farthest wish from his mind to gestion, and wished it to extend to the expose the private brewer to any ob- whole race of trusion of the excise officer into his family, he would shape the tax in such a way as to enable every man, by pay ing a fair and reasonable commutation, to avoid a necessity so obnoxious. The tax would be assessed upon a scale of proportion with the other assessed taxes; upon the highest orders, according to July 18c6. 44 the shape of men, who precluded so se effeminate beings, in many thousands of deserving females from an honest livelihood. As to the tax proposed by the Noble Lord, the had not the slightest objection to it so far as it affected himself; but he would not go quite so far on the behalf of his constituents at Stafford, many of whom were were poor, but honest, industrious men, who were in the habit of brewing a little ale for their own families; they certainly brewed a very good sort; and he must do them the justice to say, that they did ample justice to their own brewing. He therefore could have wished the noble lord had commenced his scale of the tax a little higher in society. The resolution was however agreed to. PUBLIC ACCOUNTS. Lord H. Petty then moved for and obtained leave to bring in a bill for better regulating the public accounts in the West Indies. He prefaced his motion by a long detail of the measures in contemplation for the better management of the public accounts in general. It appeared that very little had been done towards examining the public accounts since the American war. The evils, indeed, for which a remedy is now proposed, are of a much older date. Mr Pitt early saw and attempted to reme dy them. In 1785 he appointed five Commissioners for the examination of the public accounts; their labours were productive of much advantage; but that and the other Boards which have hitherto conducted this important branch of the public business, whether from some defect in the original constitution, the want of sufficient powers to pursue inquiry with effect, or the immensity of the labour they had to perform, have been found totally inadequate to the task. The remedy proposed by Lord Henry Petty is to appoint a Board of ten Members, to whom it is proposed to assign three different departments of this service.-1. For the examination and close of all the Military Accounts which had been entered upon, but not concluded.-2. For the examination of all the Accounts in arrear, which had not yet been taken up or entered upon at all. And, 3. for the examination of all the Army Accounts, from the 31st of December last; and to go on with the actual Expenditure of the Nation, so as to subject it to a constant, progressive, and immediate audit. After the present pressure of business has subsided, the ten Commissioners are to be redu. ced to six, and the three Boards converted into one. Wednesday May 28. CHARGE against MARQUIS WELLESLEY. Mr Paul, after a few introductory words, laid on the table a paper which he stated to be articles of charge of high crimes and misdemeanours against the Marquis of Wellesley, with respect to his treatment of the Nabob of Oude. These charges entered at great length into the conduct of the Noble Marquis, from his first arrival at Lucknow, the capital of the province of Oude, in 1798; and seemed chiefly to accuse his Lordship of oppression, and breach of faith, with the Nabob. In describ. ing the state of Oude at the time of the Marquis's arrival, Lucknow, the capi. tal, was represented as being as populous as London and Westminister, and the province itself as large as England and Wales. The Nabub was in the possession of an immense revenue, could take the field with 500 elephants, 13,000 horse, and 13,000 foot, and had, in jewels only, to the amount of four millions, sterling money. Mr Francis said, that every thing in India depended on the power of the sword; but it was of the British sword. Those Indian Princes had obtained their sovereignties in consequence of the partial dissolution of the Mogul Empire. But however they held their tenures, he contended, whether they had obtained them justly or unjustly, was not now the question; they had held them for a series of years; they had held them by our authority; by every authority that was respectable in this country. We had guaranteed them in this possession by repeated treaties, which good faith certainly required us to keep. He thought we ought to enter on the discussion whenever it should come before the House under this conviction. We had entered into treaties with them as independent powers, and were, of course, bound to consider them as such. Mr Fox acknowledged, that there was no principle more universal, than that the powers whose independence you guarantee by treaty should be treated as independent in the execution of any such treaty. In respect to the States of Europe, and those of India, there might, perhaps, be some difference as to feeling, but there could be none as to |