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Is Lord Melville acquainted with that I held navy bills at the time they came to fact? I believe he is, ifti a discount.
Was he acquainted with that fact at the Did you borrow a 'sum of money, for the time the acquisition of landed property took purpose of making official payments at the place, or thereabouts ? I purchased my land tinie that navy bills were so at a discount, at four or five different times; I do not that you might keep those bills unsold know that his
, Lordship was acquainted As I conceived it to be immaterial whether with each purchase. . 474
I paid the public drafts by money taken Was Lord Melville generally acquaint. out of one pocket, or out of another, I ed that you had become a man of landed' certainly borrowed money at the time I · : property in Scotland ? I presume he was ; found I could not sell iny navy bills with
for although it is not a great purchase, yet out a loss. it is not so insignificant, as to have escaped When Mr Bathurst gave directions to his Lordship's notice.
you, as Paymaster, to rentove the cash
front What do you conceive to be the amount Mr Coutts's to the Bank, did you remonof your property at this moment? I badoc- strate upon that subject'? I never made casion,about a year ago, to make up a state, any objection to Mr Bathurst's orders, but ment of my property; and at that time I va- I certainly took the liberty to ar Jued it at what I considered to be a very fair the subject
gye upon yaluation, at about 51,000l or 52,000l; io Were the balances actually due by Lord but it was so invested, as not to produce me i Melville to you upon the account current, an income of more than 1200l. per ann
... and the balance due upon the chest accounta Has the salary of the Paymaster of the paid to you by Lord Navy been increased considerably since the whole of them were he ? I believe
paid to me. you were originally appointed to it? It hasi Could you specify at all, in what man, a
To what amount? To the sum of sool ger they were paid to you? I have per ann.
dered the subject very much lately, and to Did that increase take place before Lord from that consideration I am able to speaking Melville left the office in the year 1800? Having the power of selling the whole of It took place at the very time I believe. his Lordship's stocks, I directed them to Did it take place at the time, or imme.
be sold, and they were accordingly sold, diately after Lord Melville left the office! else the price of the was allowed I do not know whether the first payment and paid into the credit of my account at of my salary commenced before or after. Mr Coutts's. They were paid. into the
Did it take place before the first of Ja- credit, I believe, "of Lord Melville's ac nuary 1809? I believe not... Did the Sub-Accountants, upon your.
count, at Mr Coutts's. If I had documents i
to speak from. I could make an accurate site taking your seat, come with the balances statement. If the Honourable Managemene regularly to you in the course of the of who is perfectly acquainted with the sir. si fice, with signed lists, coming from the cumstance, will ask me upon each indivi: Navy Board
for each day? They generally dual sum, I shall perhaps be able to state. puna did so, but not uniformly,: .
Do you recollect so far as that a sum of Was it their ordinary routine of duty: so 20,000l. was paid into your hands, on to do? It was,
1: 981 account of Lord Melville, by Mr Sprott? Did you continue in your office liable to It was paid either into my hands, or be called upon by any sub-actountant; to Sprott, into the credit of Lord Melvilles. whom you had not issued a sufficient sum account at Mr Coutts's. in the morning, till the hour at which the Was another sum, of about 30,0001. paid payment ceased in the Navy Pay-Office k into your hands on account of Lord Me! either remained myself, or left some per ville, by Mr Sprott
rect ; that money was paid into the credit Did any interruption or hindrance take of my account at Mr Coutts's, being the place to the business of the office, after the produce of the sale of East India stock money was taken back from Mess. Coutcs's which I mentioned yesterday, by which a. to the Bank? I foresaw that a hindrance debt was paid off which existed upon that. inight occur, and I took care to obriate its stock of 20,000. the surplus of it went to hy granting the balances fuller than I might the credit of Lord Melville's account cur. have done at Mr Courts's in
tent with me. Was
any pay ever delayed for a mo- What became of it after it passed thro ment by the money being at the Bank.r the 'accounts current with you? I always do not recollect any instance of it. paid that money into the Bank, in liquida
Do you recollect that you were holder tion of balances I had nút of the Bank. of a certain quantity of navy bills at the Do you know any one instance where me when they fell to a discount? I believe you did not credit Lord Melville, as an
or . me ve
une authorised to carry on that part of my Hon. Manager has stated
cannot swear so,
. lionest mary ouglit to do, for the money you Coutts's ? I do not know any loss that the received on his account ? His Lørdship public have sustainedu. betingelpu 9125 was most undoubtedlycredited, but if a sum Do you know whether the public did of noney had been paid into my hands, not sustain a loss by the death of Mr Jeli with directions to pay to himself again coe, and how that ilagssarözé ? sv That was these are exceptions.
not a loss in consequencebof havinig remova Question bilanager sa The questioned the money ironi the Bank to the house, asked by the Learned Counsel was, ,whe- of Messrs. Coutts:40,9 hits biom ther upon that occasion, or upon any other, Could that idosss have Lord Melville ever directed you to lay out money had continued to be lodged in the any part of the public money in your hands, Bank That circumstance could nor have for the use and benefit of Lord Melville ? been affected by the money being continued to which the answer was, you never did un- in the Bank. der the specific name of public money, or 4. Whether the account called the Iron any money bearing that description, whe- Chest account, was principally of a public ther you received any directions in any way nature The Iron chest account wisi in from Lord Melville, which led you to know,, account of i monies which were drawn that Lord Melville meant the public no- from the Bank, and placed into the hands ney ; that Lord public nioney Melville knew that it was of Messrs. Coutts's me was to be so paid. I á Having said that my Lord Melville paid
a great deal more attention to accounts that Did Lord Melville make any inquiry of were public than to his own private ac, you after the indignant, refusali which he counts, what kind of attention did he paý had given to the a certain sum of money what attention Lord Melville paid to that
proposition made by you to this Iron Chest account? I do not know in the purchase of East India stock ; did account when he had the documents in Lord Melville, when he either requested his possession, but he never paid any parer required inoney to be advanced to him ticular attention to it during the time I was by you, did ever he ask you, in any one ise with his Lordship, when i had presented stance, whether your own private funds it to hint! *.371:9.77 11 would supply that source ! I do not se- *. Having said that, when you delivered collect that his Lordship ever did. As to the private accounts to Lord Melville, the inquiring into the particular state of my accounts between you and 'Lord Melville, own private funds, I do not think Lord his Lordship was not in the course of in. Melville ever did.
vestigating those accounts, or comparing Did he ever make any inquiry of you, the vouchers with them, if a complete inwhether, ini making such advances, you vestigation of those accounts had takeri were trenching upon the public balances ? place between Lord Melville' mind you, He never did.
would it not then have appeared, that the You' stated that the chest account was monies in that account were ntonies advan. regularly delivered to Lord Melville. It ced out of the public monies. 1 apprehend was at different periods, but not so free it would., TILOI (mbia ? quently as I delivered the account current When the application was made to Lord Melville upon your delivering the chest ace, of East India stock, was any reference made count to him ? Lord Melville never exas to the current price of that stock at that mined my accounts, in my--presence, so I time I do not recollect à any reference made minutely as to enable him to make obe to the current price at that time, further jections.
than by a comparison to what his Lordship Did he ever in fact object to them? He expected twould be the rise that stock never did.
svould ultimately arrive at, at a distant we correct in supposing that, the time ;sthat was the only time Lord Melloyalty, loan money was transterred from ville ever gave merhis opinidir upon the vathe account current to the chest account? lue of it; and ar no tinie whatever did his It was.
og Lordship ever insinuate to me, in the small Whether Lord Melville was not credited Jest degrees: his expectations of the rise or for the dividends upon the loyalty loan up, fall of the stocks excepting in that instance, to the period at which that loan was sold. You have said, that for a considerable I believe he was. + gerist length of time, after the purchase of u
this stock, the interest of the money which was Examined by the Lords
** borrowed for the purchase of it, amounted Whether you know that the public sus- to a greater sum than the dividends arising tained any loss by the removal of the mo- from that stock, whether any person lending Dey from the Bank of England to Messrsi money in the ordinary course of dealing bị
076 2759% gvit 70 T:0] Juoda paloneyllenders, would diaye considered the Bank and put intor Mr.Coatto's atid stice assignment of such stocks putting it in the versa, the sums drawn from outsisi rand nature of the lender, as a collateral secu. issued to the subiaccountants.ti doisw dir rity for the money advariced for that stock? What is it thatıyou mean by chrestVaco -b The question was objected to.l 03 116!!! count? The chest account
kavas one of those 7. How and in what manner was that goooh accounts which I kept with Lord Melville, you spoke to in your examination, repaid? upon which I hade been required to advance -I can only recollect that it was repaid by sums of the application of which I knew his Lordship to me at two different times, nothing is a les 03 silivyM 610141 and in two different sums19116 1204079 What was the first item of the Chest Ac
Did you give any receipt to Lord Mel: cdunto? It was the sum of 10;bool: svia wille for that money which he paid iyou?- Were thereather advances upon the face I did not to 491.1 sie prene UJUT
of that Chest Account immedizcelýmfter the Having stated that sin the accountbbe opening of it Therey were others advana tween Lord Melville and you, Lord Meb sed vupon thạtiaccountzbut not immediately ville was credited for the dividends upon after the opening of it. T? Its ta 92.9197161 the India stock, and debited for the interest you have said, that at the cinse of Lord of the money lento
, in whosex name was Melville's 1 treasurerships you showedoto that receipt put ?--No nanié was used at Lordi Melville the tsam advanced to shim all, his Lordship got credit by the divir fromis the public idney-side is desired i da dends, and was debited for the interést, know if Lord Melville explaineditocyor without any name being specified.com s from what sources that money was to be
Supposing Lord Melville had not reject sepaid fuel have said that I gaveia genes ed, tas he did with indignation, the propol rol statements of Lord Melville's accounts sition you made of advancing, to Lord between his kordshigi arid oniyself; and he Melville the public money, as the means of comnionlyla pointed out different care ES purchasing that stockri ing what mame from which money would arise itvi depay. would it have been debited in the course ment of these sumse and which he texpres of business? 48-the fact did not rexist, I sedias wish tosrepay before he left thebekenhave never given it any consideration, it in surership od bitinis yra buen013099X9 oda
Would it have been debited, in the man Whethern Lord Melqille expressed gay per in which it was debited dazll should not surprise at the bstate of his pocountre He make any entry of any sort without a due did; he was vetyomuch surprised to find consideration, and b cannot in my present the balance was so much against himqong situation, give it a due consideration
Havingi stated that you conceive chat no You stated, that after Lord Melville had loss or detrimenteacèrued toothe public by rejected the proposal that you nade, to drawing the money from the Bankərand purchase India stock out of the public mo- putting it in the hands of private bankers; ney, you isuggested to Lord Melville that state whether withdrawing sarlargera som you could procure the money from your re of money froin the Bankya wodkd netqput lation Mr Lind, upon the security of that it less in the powerlof the Banki çosmake stock ; that failing to procure the money, those discounts on which the trading part you stated notwithstanding to Lord Mel of the public dependiend do not know how ville, thati you had to procured it, and the far it would be proper sfor me talenter into stock was in fact purchased, as I understand an argument, on that subjecti with their you, in the name of Mr Lind; whether L. Lordshipsbro sitiw nois 990109 bris nois: Melville was acquainted with the circum- es The question was objecsed top and var. stance of the stock having been so purcha- edersid agad sa ti es 902 03 basisidus sed in the name of Mr Lind to Lord Mel Having stated that you alone derived the ville knew that the stock stood in the name benefit from sapplication of a part of the of Mr Lind, but I have never told Lord public moneyp whether, without the appliMelville that I had actually assisted Mr Eationof the public money you have stated, Lind to advance the moneyer-qo silt 16919 you would hayer been in the conditions to
In the course of the transaction of the have made thesiadyances you have stated purchase of thiesstock between goy and you made to Lord Melville withoutgehar Lord Melville, was ithat transaction
so con- ging any interest: d could notf unless finde ducted as if the money had been dona fute ing that lo bad not: the meansiof angmento advanced for the purchase of that stack by ing my fortune siin-the: manner, Jadide 1 Mr Lind? It was!*4 "byvow tiya01d might have turned myłatcention elsewhere,
What do you, m by the Iron Chest and then I might have been able to chave Account? That was an account i that was advanced these mtoniegsy-- Loor to yis. kept in the Navy Pay Office by Mr. Wile At what period of time did you begin son and myself, in which we entered the building your house near Edinburgh ? As sums of money that were taken from the nearly as I can recollect, I made a consider
ahle addition to my house, which I began I explained to this Court yesterday, that I about four or five years ago.
was put in possession of a sum of money as Is that house furnished? I removed the soon as I was appointed to the office day furniture from my house at Blackheath, which I was enabled to become ma lens. with which it is now furnishedari? Stiera ders of money. S 693basi su to 9tusAT
Were you rever incertogated by 'Lord You have stated, that younrade a poopos Melville as to the expence of building this sition to Lord Melodle vwhich his drd. house a The expence of building this house ship indignantlys rejectedslw Did gogoever may not be sa great as the Noble Lords make any such proposition, moteskan that may have heardzo non ssd greatlas toriga one time? I never didosl10991 ylno nsg I. duce Lord Melville to ask me any queste Did Lord Melvitleseveroakusten to that tion upon that subjectiuni ado enw proposition afterwards Prist donov recollect
Give to the Court an account of the chat his Lordshrip ever did. svim srov bic whole transaction sconcerning the release ; ---Did Lord Melville ever say any thing to nad, in giving to the Court the whole of you subsequent to the time of your having ibat foransaction; begins with stating what made that s proposition, from whence you was ither occasioni orimecessity for having collected supposition on the parti of his that release at all? The necessity originated Lordship, that you were so using the pube in my wish to have alhmy affairssettled with lio money?: Never. I sI's we can Lord Melvillez ascl always apprehended, 25 Do you know the date of the appointhope I miay be allowed to say that his Lord ment of the Naval Coinmissioners? I do ship was not so careful of preserving this pa: pot. side wifi : persoorbacsoupts asi torbe satisfactory tó 32 Do you recollect at what time, or withhéirs or successors je and that there might in a month of the time, when the return berag difficulty or argument about shewa vas made to the Commissioners of Naval ing chat a'bral settlemesīt laad: been made Inquiry, requiring the balances of the Nato tither his Lordshipis keirserrimy own sy Pay Office That return was made it bwas anxious that to release a should pass, believe, in the month of January 1803; by which it only became necessary that one but the precept had been issued many voucher should be preservedo k bad pro months before, i believessd svši :: blue posed it somertime beforesito was wearried How soon was that 'return made before into execution, and my mind became every you gave directions for the execution of the day fstik-more iinpressed with the nečese release ? A very short time, I believe. sity of having this executed ; and in some * Had the knowledge of that retarni ang conversation with his bordship I may have effect on your mind in procuring the re* proposed tagain, and told him that I would lease? I believe it had."1754 mb 20, forward releases for his Lordship, to be Whether, at the time that you received signed in Seotland,rif he would give me permission from Lord Melville tou draw leave a but this state more from knowing the public money from the Bank, and to that that must have been the circumstanice place ic; in your own name in the hands than from amactualrecollection lof the time of Messrs. Courts-whether, either at the or place when such conversation passed time you received that permission; or auy shiemapplied to my soliciton in London to subsequent time, you received any anjane! draw out a release fdosuch purposes ; and tion front his Lordship not to apply any as he was! my intimate friend and counsel part of that money to your own use I rem borj as well as solicitor, bez proceeded very ceived no such injunction, but I received niuch from his own knowledge ofrmy situ- ne prohibition I mean I received no suche ation and connection with Lord Melville permission to do so. 19o.nenu in drawingoupsehat releaseis the draft' wa - Having stated that the intimation, which submitted to me, as it has been brought you had received from the Commissioners to my recollection by the Hanta Managers, had an operation upon your mind when wholohave possessed themselves of that you directed the teleaserítas be prepared, draft; otherwise i vi hadt forget the circuma was that factor
circumstance, to your know statice, 9v Bát d find that Ditaads seen that ledge, communicated to Lord Melville ! draft, by several words being written anit mean the operation of that upon your mind. inny own hand-writings it was afterwards tido not oreooltect chat it ever scared anys brought to ime bývMr Spottiswoode, fairly thing upon that dubject to Lord Melvite. o copied out, and, to the best nfmy recollec -Do you know whether angiorberperiode tion, forwarded by me to his fordship in ever soated sto Lord Melvitte, tha ontada Scotland, and he returned it toime, by which count of that transaction with the Commisi the transaction was finally closed.vertinimsioners, it would be expedient theistiches *v How soon after being in possession of a deed as chis should be executed) No such salary of sool. a-year, did you find yourself fact consists with my knowledge. JavogA. tobulin a condition to be adender of money? - Howlong wait after ud acona 16233 A dywinib: 16911 921301 muoy yupiima srie 191930397 bisiw si 192yone brisi gor IPOD - 4bur 1 Baliua1102 ) 22989 **
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been placed at Coutis's, that you first began pedite with dispatch the various branches of to enploy it in the various ways in which the department entrusted to his charge.” you have stated you did en ploy it for your Mr Morriso “ On the part of the Muna. private use and benefit ? I believe I had be- gers of the Commons, I propose now to gun to employ it before it had gone there; call witnesses te shew out of what funds there was no interruption that I know of. the monies in question were paid, and how
Who was it that suggested to you the they were applied. We shall shew that the propriety of keeping a chest account? 10 public monies in the hands of Mr Trotter was merely giving a name to an account were applied to the advantage of Lord Mel. I found necessary to raise in debiting Lord ville, inasmuch as they operated to reduce Melville, with that 10,000l. which I found the sums he had overdrawn from some pri. not in the Bank, when I succeeded Mr vate bankers with whom he had accounts. Douglas as Paymaster.
Mr Robert Trotter was sworn. He said Why did you intitle it a Chest Account? that he was brother to Alexander Trotter ; I recollect nothing of the circumstance ; in 1787, he received directions from his but, if I may be allowed to suppose it, Í brother to pay money for account of Lord should rather think that Lord Melville de Melville into the hands of Sir William sired me to raise an account, and to call it Forbes and Co. and of Mansfield, Ramsay, a Chest Acoount.
and Co. of Edinburgh. He believed the 3You have been stating, that you advan. mounts were coool. to the one, and soool. ced the money with which the India Stock to the other, was purchased, although it stood in the Sir Win. Forbes being called, said, that name of Mr Lind, whether you received Lord Melville kept an account with the from Mr Lind any security for that East banking-house with which he was connectIndia Stock purchased in his name, with ed at Ediuburgh; that the account was your money? I received an acknowledge overdrawn; and that it was their custom to ment to that purpose.
charge interest in such cases. 3000l. was Did that acknowledgement state for received through the hands of Mr Robert whom the purchase was made ? It did Trotter, on his Lordship's account, to renot, at least it did not mention Lord Mel- duce the charge against it. ville's name, but my own.
On his cross-examination, he said that Whether, if the speculation had succeed- all his correspondence with Lord Melville ed, Lord Melville had any means of getting had been transmitted to the Managers of at this money, especially if you were dead?
the House of Commons from the year 1784 I am free to say it never entered my con
to 1.800. sideration.
Mr James Mansfield sworn. He said Did Lord Melville explain to you that he was a banker at Edinburgh, and that it the sum of 10,300l. was public money ?-- was the custom with the Scottish banking He did not explain it to me, there was no houses not only to charge interest for overpecessity for that, for I knew it to be so. drawing, but algo to allow iuterest of 3 per
Whether any person except yourself in cent. in favour of a customer on a current the Navy Pay-Office received any advan, account ; and more interest was conceded tage, directly or indirectly, from the use of when any sum remains permanently in the the public money? I believe that some of hands of a banker. The Right Hon. Henry the sub-accountants have derived some Dundas was one of the customers of the small advantages, but I am not acquain- house, and he was indebted to it in 1785. ted with them; I can speak to nothing but The accounts of the house were transmitmy own transactions.
ted to the agent of Lord Melville, MrAlex. The witness was directed to withdraw. auder Trotter ; vouchers were received,
Sir Stephen Cottrel then proved from signed by the Right Hon. Henry Duudas the Council Register, the order for the re- himself. gulation of the Navy Pay-Office; and also The witness being about to speak to a the memorial of Mr Dundas, on which it payment of 25,000l. advanced by Mess, was founded, wherein he states, that “ his Coutts to his house, under the firm of Mansduty to his Majesty and to the public had field, Ramsay, and Co. on account of Lord actuated him to give an attentive consider- Melville, ation to the whole conduct and establish- Mr Plomer objected, on the ground that ment of the office ; and, in full persuasion of the witness was not deposing to facts withbeing able to execute the business of it in a in his own knowledge. manner consistent with the late regulations, Mr Whitbread My Lords, we have he most humbly presumes to submit for his the original letter of Mr Robert Trotter, Majesty's approbation, an arrangement of relating to that transaction, and we will the whole, calculated upon principles of real prove it." economy, and formed upon a system to ex
To be continued.