MR. SOLATER-BOOTH said, he was of opinion that it was absurd that the wretched old story in reference to Mr. Churchward should be so perpetuated.

MR. MONSELL said, Mr. Churchward's name had been retained in deference to the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown. If, however, he found on inquiry that there was no substantial reason for its retention, he should take steps to have it omitted.

VISCOUNT BURY said, that when he was a candidate for the borough of Dover he had heard a great deal about the Churchward contract, but that was so long ago that he thought the matter ought now to disappear from the Votes of the House altogether. Surely the Law Officers of the Crown could devise some more direct means of debarring Mr. Churchward from receiving any of the money voted by Parliament.

MR. GLADSTONE said, there was no desire to keep Mr. Churchward's name on the Votes of the House; but it was done under the advice of the Law

Officers of the Crown, and if the necessity of keeping the name there ceased, it would be withdrawn.

time by the House was not very great, and they might perhaps before long be at liberty to attend in their places for a quarter-of-an-hour.

MR. MONSELL said, he hoped that the Committee would be satisfied with the assurance he had given, and would promise that one or both of the hon. and learned Gentlemen should be present when the Report was taken. Vote agreed to.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow, at Two of the clock;

Committee to sit again upon Wednesday.

JURIES ACT AMENDMENT (IRELAND)
BILL (Lords)-[BILL 195.]
(Mr. Attorney General for Ireland.)

COMMITTEE.

Order for Committee read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, Chair."-(Mr. Attorney General for Ire"That Mr. Speaker do now leave the land.)

MR. BAGWELL said, he objected to Irish business being commenced after midnight, and would move the adjournment of the debate.

That the Debate be now adjourned."
Motion made, and Question proposed,
Bagwell.)

MR. COLLINS remarked that the name would seem to have been kept on the Votes for the purpose of casting a slur on a particular gentleman in connection with a very much disputed point. The whole thing, he thought, ought to have been dead and buried long ago. MR. BAXTER said, he would admit-(Mr. it was desirable that the heading referred to should be left out of the Vote. No one was more anxious than himself that the old controversy should be forgotten; but Mr. Churchward's name was retained, as had been before stated, in deference to the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown, those hon. and learned Gentlemen having stated that so long as Mr. Churchward had an action against the Crown going on the name should be retained on the Votes.

SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLEN remarked that there was not a Law Officer of the

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. DowSE) said, he hoped the Motion would not be pressed, as it would be absolutely necessary that the Bill should be passed by the 30th of the month.

MR. BAGWELL withdrew his Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Main Question put, and agreed to.
Bill considered in Committee.
Amendments made.

Bill reported; as amended, to be conCrown present to tell the Committee sidered To-morrow, at Two of the clock. anything on the matter.

MR. FAWCETT said, that if that were the case, it would be well, in justice to those hon. and learned Gentlemen, to postpone the Vote until they had time to spare from their duties elsewhere to devote to their duties in that House. The demand made on their

RAILWAYS PROVISIONAL CERTIFICATE

CONFIRMATION BILL.

Order for Committee read, and discharged :

Bill, so far as relates to "The Widnes Railways,"

by the Committee of Selection as in the case of a committed to a Select Committee, to be nominated Private Bill,

be referred to the said Committee; and such of

the Petitioners as pray to be heard by themselves,
their Counsel, or agents, be heard upon their
Petitions, if they think fit, and Counsel heard in
favour of the said Bill against the said Petitions.
-(Mr. Arthur Peel.)

House adjourned at a quarter
after One o'clock.

Ordered, That, subject to the Rules and Orders | had been a clause against holding comof Proceeding of this House, all Petitions pre-mittees in public-houses in the Bill of sented during the present Session against the Bill last year, and he believed that such a Bill as that for bribery and corruption, and the clause for closing public-houses, would have greatly secured quiet at the polling stations. As to the voters, he was sure the present Bill could not work unless some considerable time was devoted to its further consideration, and on these grounds alone he felt justified in taking this course; but besides, he saw before their Lordships a Bill of the principle of which he and many of their Lordships-who had not, like him, voted against the second reading disapproved; and he had his noble and learned Relative's opinion, given in 1830, that bribery would not be diminished by the Ballot-intimidation was to be put down by public opinion. In the same letter that noble and learned Lord expressed

HOUSE OF LORDS,

Tuesday, 25th June, 1878.

*

MINUTES. PUBLIC BILLS-First Reading Landlord and Tenant (Ireland) Act (1870) Amendment (No. 2)* (172); Acrobats (173). Second Reading-Church of England Fire Insurance (102); Elementary Education Act (1870) Amendment (126); Review of Jus

*

*

tices' Decisions* (164). Report Local Government Supplemental (No. 2) and Act (No. 2, 1864) Amendment, now Local Government Supplemental (No. 2)* (130). Third Reading-Charitable Trustees Incorporation (127) Parliamentary and Municipal Elections (168); Oyster and Mussel Fisheries Supplemental (No. 2)* (156); Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Supplemental (142) Elementary Education (Provisional Order Confirmation)* (148); Tramways (Ireland) Provisional Order Confirmation (147): Bank of England (Election of Directors)* (144); Customs and Inland Revenue* (162), and passed.

PARLIAMENTARY AND MUNICIPAL
ELECTIONS BILL-(No. 168.)
(The Lord President.)

THIRD READING.

Order of the Day for the Third Reading, read.

Moved, "That the Bill be now read 3." -(The Lord President.)

LORD DENMAN, who had given Notice that the Bill be read a third time this day six months, said, it might appear a somewhat unusual course to oppose the third reading of a Bill which had been passed with great labour and care by the other House, and, in some measure, adopted by their Lordships' House; but when he regarded the candidates, he did not think that any man should object to appear personally before the constituency he desired to represent to explain the political opinions he held, and to answer such questions as the voters might put to him. There

his abhorrence of the doctrines as to tenants votes, that a landlord might do what he would with his own, and thought that undue influence ought to be exposed and frustrated. And, as regarded the Returning Officers, he thought the multiplication of polling stations-even at a distance of four miles-in counties was so great that it would be difficult to find gentlemen to fill the office of High Sheriff-for, so far as he could learn, no one was bound to pay for those polling stations; at all events, the Sheriff, in the first instance, had to incur expense, and instead of having a deposit from the nominators, he had to look to the precarious chance of recovering a verdict against those who might ultimately be liable. He was quite sure if their Lordships passed this Bill-without amending it in the Bribery and Corruption Bill formerly a part of this Bill--they would repent it, and he earnestly entreated them to reject it in its present shape. With regard to the Amendments proposed, they had caused much anxiety to the noble Duke, and he was sorry that he could not support more than one of them at first; but as they afforded half publicity he would support them if they were returned from another place. But why should their Lordships consent to change-even for eight years-a good open manly system of voting for one of which they disapproved? He believed that the feeling of a large portion of the people of this country was adverse to the scheme of secret voting.

EARL FORTESCUE said, he differed THE MARQUESS OF BRISTOL moved completely from the noble Lord. He to insert after Clause 2 the first of a series of 15 clauses, proposing a complete scheme for the adoption of voting papers.

Moved, after Clause 2 to insert the following clause :

Any voter may, in compliance with the provisions hereinafter contained, give his vote by a voting paper instead of personally."-(The Marquess of Bristol.)

THE MARQUESS OF RIPON said, he hoped their Lordships would not entertain an Amendment which was entirely outside the scope of the measure before them. When the Reform Bill introduced by Lord Derby's Government was before their Lordships, an Amendment for the adoption of voting papers was sent down by their Lordships to the House of Commons; but though the Government of the day might have been supposed to be favourable to such a system, the Amendment was rejected in the House of Commons by a large majority. It would be useless to send such an Amendment down to the other House. But his objection to it did not end there. He thought it would increase the facilities for bribery and intimidation. He believed that those facilities would be increased by any system which would serve to disconnect the voter from his vote, and therefore he opposed the Amendment.

did not believe that even the opponents of the measure would think it advisable to reject the Motion for the third reading. He retained very much the same opinion with regard to the Ballot as he had done while a Member of the House of Commons, and he regarded the present measure as one of a very unimportant character, that would equally fail to produce the good effects anticipated by its supporters, and the bad ones predicted of it by its opponents. When first returned to Parliament, in 1841, he told his constituents that he considered the Ballot a very unimportant question; but that as, in his opinion, it would do little harm and less good he felt bound to oppose it. He represented large constituencies for 15 years, who always returned him, notwithstanding his declared opposition to the Ballot. As long as he had a seat in the House of Commons he had acted consistently with the views he had thus avowed; but within the last four or five years he had changed his opinion. He now considered the Ballot more unimportant than ever, in consequence of the altered position of the employers and employed in this country, but should support it because he thought it would do a very little good and still less harm. He believed that the mass of the constituencies attached very little value to the Bill now before their Lordships, THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY said, and he could not but regret that mea- that while agreeing in the course taken sures of real importance, such as the by the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Public Health Bill and the Mines Re- Ripon) he could not agree in his regulation Bill, had not been given prece-marks. He should be sorry it should dence of such a measure as this. But as be supposed that their Lordships were the Ballot Bill had been introduced by prepared to accept the doctrine just put the Government and passed by the House forward by the noble Marquess. Their of Commons, he thought it was unwise Lordships had on former occasions exof their Lordships to have adopted Amend-pressed in distinct language their apments which certainly would not be ac-proval of the system of voting papers, cepted by the other House of Parliament. It was too late on a third reading to ask their Lordships to withdraw those Amendments; but he hoped that when the Bill came up from the Commons, as it certainly would, with their Amend ments struck out, their Lordships would not insist on them.

On Question? that the Bill be now read 3a.

Resolved in the Affirmative.

and he believed that from that opinion their Lordships had never changed. Their Lordships held that the system of voting papers would prove advantageous to a great many of the constituents who were at present practically disfranchised, and would provide against a far greater amount of real intimidation than any provision contained in the Bill of the Government with that object. In respect to this question, he confessed he

Bill read 3 accordingly, with the could not believe that the opposition of Amendments,

the Liberal party to this system of voting

papers was quite free from a touch of selfishness. There were two classes of the people who were deeply interested in the adoption of voting papers-namely, the tranquil quiet people, and those who lived in remote rural districts far from polling places. There was, however, a large party in the other House of Parliament who studiously opposed every proposition to enfranchise these classes of the constituents by the adoption of the system of voting papers. And why? He believed because quiet people, and people living at distances from polling centres, were generally Conservatives. Although, then, he believed that their Lordships had not changed their opinions on this subject, he also believed that the majority of the other House, who had rejected this proposal by a majority of upwards of 40, had not changed theirs. Under such circumstances, he did not think that any useful object could be gained by flashing this Amendment once more in their faces. In his opinion, it would be better for their Lordships to wait until the minds of those who were now averse to this system had become wiser by experience.

EARL FORTESCUE protested against the summary condemnation of the proposal pronounced by the noble President of the Council. What the noble Marquess meant by disconnecting the voter from his vote he confessed he was unable to understand.

LORD COLCHESTER advocated the system of voting papers upon the ground that such a system would cure many evils that now existed. It would prevent the necessity of infirm and timorous people having to travel to the poll and to encounter bad weather and the noise and disturbance of the polling place. Even although the principle of having voting papers was not embodied in this Bill, he trusted that at some future time the good sense of the people would cause it to be adopted.

On Question? Resolved in the Negative.

Amendments made.

class of officers in the Royal Navy now called Staff Commanders and Navigating Lieutenants? The noble Lord said that among other changes that had been proposed with respect to the Royal Navy was, to do do away with that most useful class of officers formerly known as masters, now called staff commanders and navigating lieutenants. The question had become one of great importance, because the fact that several of our ships had recently got aground had been, by some, attributed to the navigation having been entirely left to this distinct class of officers. It had been argued that as captains of merchant vessels navigated their own ships, captains in the Navy ought not to be allowed a sailing officer or navigating lieutenant. Now it was the greatest possible mistake to suppose that the captains of the Royal Navy did not navigate their ships; but with the many duties which a captain in the Navy now had to perform, it was impossible that he could personally perform that duty, and therefore a sailing master was appointed to assist him, who acted under the captain's direction and superintendence in the performance of his duties. But the sailing masters had not only the charge of the navigation of the ship but they had to undertake, under the Queen's Regulations, the duty of pilots. Ships of war when near land could not be safely navigated unless they had such an officer as the master on board. With merchant ships it was different. As the usual custom with merchant ships was to trade between particular ports, the officers became to know the course between those ports thoroughly, and were able to act as pilots, so that sometimes there were as many as five or six good pilots on board a merchant ship. Moreover, when merchant ships were insured they were obliged to take regular pilots on board. Now, their Lordships would see the case was quite different with Her Majesty's ships, which went all over the world, and not in regular course between particular ports, and frequently not one

Bill passed, and sent to the Commons. of the officers of a ship of war had ever

NAVY-STAFF COMMANDERS AND
NAVIGATING LIEUTENANTS.

QUESTION.

THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE rose to inquire of Her Majesty's Government, If it is their intention to do away with that VOL. CCXII. [THIRD SERIES.]

visited the port to which they were bound. Again, in case of war, we should never be able to get pilots for an enemy's coast unless we obtained them from merchant ships. Two hundrd years ago the admirals and captains occupied a position in the Navy somewhat similar to that of our generals in the Army,

G