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opinion of a high authority, and the hon. | Member opposite (Mr. W. H. Smith) had clearly stated in what respect he desired to depart from the judgment of the Committee. It was totally impossible to take the Bill at the commencement of next Session. This was a hybrid Bill, which it would be necessary to pass through certain formal stages, so that it could not come before the House next Session until they were in the full tide of work. The Government was, therefore, obliged to see what could be done in the time remaining in this Session. If the expression of the judgment of the House was such as would not enable the Government to go forward with the plan, or to enable the hon. Member for Westminster to take up the Bill and carry it forward, without being in any way unfairly impeded by the Government, it would become the duty of the Government to consider whether the question should not be postponed.

MR. W. H. SMITH said, that when he put his Amendment on the Paper, he did so in the belief that it was expedient and desirable that the Bill should be disposed of in this Session; but since that time negotiations had been entered into which had very materially altered the circumstances referred to by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. There could be no doubt that the line of approach to the Embankment from Charing Cross was materially affected by the position of Northumberland House. Proposals had been made to his Grace by the Metropolitan Board of Works; but he (Mr. W. H. Smith) had no desire to prejudge the result of those communications or to express an opinion upon them. If, however, an approach was to be made from Charing Cross through Northumberland House, he felt certain that the public would respond to the advance that would be made to the Duke of Northumberland by the Metropolitan Board of Works, in asking his Grace to sacrifice Northumberland House to the necessities of the people. Whatever might be the result of the negotiation, no one could doubt that the approach of the Embankment should be from Charing Cross. Until that point was settled, it would be premature to take into consideration the question of the line of buildings as it affected the particular land in question; and as it was expedient that the discus

Mr. Gladstone

sion of the question should be postponed, he supported the hon. and learned Member for Oxford in his Amendment.

MR. ANDERSON had intended to support the Government, but the remarks of the hon. Member for Westminster (Mr. W. H. Smith) had induced him to change his opinion. This Bill was a proposal to sell a piece of land worth about £100,000 for £3,000; but if the Bill were postponed there would be a chance of getting for the land a larger price somewhat in proportion to the sum which the Duke of Northumberland would receive for his land.

COLONEL HOGG said, that when the Metropolitan Board of Works found the present Duke of Northumberland was clearing away the buildings between the gardens to Northumberland House and the Embankment, they conceived it to be their duty to enter into fresh negotiations upon the subject of the approach to the Embankment from Charing Cross, feeling sure that the reason the Embankment was not more used was the want of good approaches to it. With that object in view, they had gone to the Duke of Northumberland in order to ascertain what he was disposed to do in the matter. Negotiations on the subject were now going on, and what the result of them might be he could not tell.

MR. SCLATER-BOOTH said, there might be many reasons why it was desirous to postpone the further consideration of the question. Speaking for himself, he should be sorry to see Northumberland House pulled down. It would no doubt be a public improvement, but it could only be effected at an enormous expense. He thought the affairs of the Duke of Northumberland had been unnecessarily brought into the question.

MR. BERESFORD HOPE having in a former Session successfully challenged the opinion of the House on the preservation of Northumberland House, and having been last year a Member of the Select Committee on the subject of the Thames Embankment, wished to make a few remarks. He protested against the red herring of Northumberland House being drawn across the path. Differing as he did from the Government on the main question, he must acknowledge the fairness with which they had on the present occasion arranged to try the principle at stake

-namely, whether the money spent by Metropolitan Board and giving them less the metropolitan ratepayers on that land into the bargain. The question ground had or had not given them a was which of the two schemes should be moral, as distinct from a legal, claim adopted. He denied that it would take to enter on it at a minimum cost. He the House a long time to come to a dehad come down to discuss that question, cision on the subject. Notice had cerand not to embark on an indefinite dis- tainly been given of a number of cussion of possible future approaches to Amendments by the hon. Member for the Embankment. He was a party to Westminster (Mr. W. H. Smith), but if the paper which had been issued re- the first should be carried there would questing a large attendance on the pre- be an end of the rest. Then with respect sent occasion, but had not put his name to Northumberland House, if the Metroto that paper for the purpose of trying politan Board of Works, at some future the question of Northumberland House. time, chose to acquire that residence, He might have been glad to see the Bill and to adopt some plan for bringing a postponed, because he believed that six road down from Charing Cross to the months reflection on the part of the Embankment, he did not see how, in the Chancellor of the Exchequer would induce slightest degree, that would interfere him to think that the sacrifice of popu- with the piece of land which was the larity, which his assertion of Summum matter in dispute, which was quite on jus involved, would be ill-repaid by the other side and did not come near £3,000 or even £40,000; but in face of Northumberland House. He thought, the reasons urged for the postponement, therefore, that the opinion of the House he was constrained to admit that the should be taken on the question whearguments against it predominated. On ther the proposal of the hon. Member these grounds he should not vote for for Westminster should be adopted in the Motion of the hon. and learned Mem- preference to that adopted by the Comber for Oxford, because when the Chair-mittee this year. man for the Board of Works talked about COLONEL WILSON-PATTEN deprenegotiations respecting Northumberland cated any further discussion on the subHouse he felt that by voting for the Mo-ject until the Motion before the House tion he should facilitate an issue which he might be bound to oppose at a later stage. The Resolution, if it should be in favour of the hon. and learned Member for Oxford, would be taken as expressing the feeling of the House in favour of the demolition of Northumberland House, which was a building of great interest and dignity, and could only be acquired by the Metropolitan Board at a fancy price. He appealed to the hon. Member for Westminster not to be carried away by the fervid eloquence of the hon. and learned Member for Oxford, and trusted that he would not support his Resolution, for his own part he would be compelled to vote with the Government in the hope of reaching the direct issue raised by the Amendments of his hon. Friend.

MR. LOCKE, as a Member of the Committee of last year, was not surprised at the course taken by his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Oxford (Mr. Harcourt). The Govern ment had had another Committee during the present Session. He believed that Committee had come to the determination of having a larger sum from the

was disposed of, which was whether or not the subject should be discussed on that occasion. He thought the question ought to be decided one way or the other, and then the subject might be discussed on the Amendments.

MR. COWPER - TEMPLE thought that the House would do wisely not to attempt to enter into a discussion on the merits of the Bill. It had been said that the question of Northumberland House had nothing to do with the points involved in the Bill. Now, in his opinion, the question of Northumberland House was one of primary importance in laying out the land on the Embankment. There was no approach from Charing Cross; and if the Duke of Northumberland thought proper to abandon that House for the purpose of allowing the formation of a good straight street it would be much more advantageous to the public than the preservation of the architecture of that building. After the statement which had been made by the Chairman of the Metropolitan Board, that negotiatioms were still going on with the Duke of Northumberland, he thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer would do wisely

not to proceed with the Bill, which was | to a great extent, remained inoperative, not ripe for discussion.

and the first duty of the Sanitary Department would be to inquire in what respects reform was required. The noble Marquess concluded by moving that the House go into Committee on the Bill.

MR. AGAR-ELLIS said, he had been looking at the posts on the Embankment marking out the strip of ground which it was proposed to sell to the public, and was of opinion that the land was altogether insufficient for the object contemplated. He believed that the postpone-Chair."(The Marquess of Hartington.)

ment of the discussion for six months was desirable in order that the Government might give further consideration to the matter.

LORD ELCHO admitted that it was most essential that there should be a proper access to this beautiful Embankment; but he wished to point out that a plan was laid before the Select Committee by the late Mr. Pennithorne, which gave a most beautiful access from Charing Cross to the Embankment without touching Northumberland House at all, and which, if adopted, would have saved the expenditure of the enormous sum which the purchase of the building would require.

Question put.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the

Motion agreed to.

Bill considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
Preamble postponed.
Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.

Clause 3 (Constitution of Local Government Board).

the head of the Local Government Board MR. PIM expressed his opinion that of Ireland should have a seat in the House of Commons.

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON said, he had no doubt that if at a subsequent period it should be found that there was sufficient important work to be transacted by the Board, Parliament

The House divided:-Ayes 133; Noes would be willing to give to the Board. 154 Majority 21.

Words added.

whatever Parliamentary representation it might think necessary. At present, however, he did not think the adminis

Main Question, as amended, put, and tration of the Poor Laws, or the Sanitary negatived.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (IRELAND) BILL-[BILL 90.]-COMMITTEE. (The Marquess of Hartington, Mr. Attorney General for Ireland.)

Order for Committee read.

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON,

or Local Government Acts, had produced an amount of Parliamentary occupation which would justify the appointment of another Parliamentary officer. The Chief Secretary was proposed as a President of the Board, in order to make his responsibility to the House complete.

MR. DELAHUNTY protested against in moving that Mr. Speaker do now leave a system of sanitary legislation being the Chair, said, that its object was simply rest of the United Kingdom. He was promoted for Ireland separate from the to apply to Ireland, so far as was prac- of opinion that on this subject Ireland ticable, the policy of the Act which was ought to have been included with Engpassed last year placing the administration of the Poor Law, of the Local Go- that instead of two Bills upon the subland in one Bill, and hoped next year vernment Acts, and of the Sanitary Acts,ject there would be only one.

under the Local Government Board. This Bill was in the same form as the Act of last year, so far as that was applicable to Ireland. It was not necessary to enter into further explanation beyond stating that it was erroneous to suppose that this was an attempt to amend the Local Government Acts. The principal object was to constitute a Department in which the public would have confidence, and which should superintend the administration of those Acts which, Mr. Cowper-Temple

Clause agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered To-morrow.

NAVY AND ARMY EXPENDITURE (1870-71).

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

1. Resolved, That it appears by the Navy Ap. propriation Account, for the year ended 31st

March 1871, that the balances unexpended in | Committee respect of certain Votes for Navy Services for the said year amounted to the total sum of £159,874 12s. 6d.

2. Resolved, That the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of the said sum, to provide, in part, for the expenditure incurred in excess of certain other Votes for Navy Services for the said year.

3. Resolved, That the said application be sanc

tioned.

4. Resolved, That it appears by the Army Ap propriation Account, for the year ended 31st March 1871, that the balances unexpended in respect of certain Votes for Army Services, for the said year, (together with Appropriations in aid) amounted to the total sum of £255,934 48. 6d., and that the sum of £29,249 3s. 5d. was realised in excess of the total estimated amount of Appropriations in aid.

5. Resolved, That the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of the said sums, to provide, in part, for the expenditure incurred in excess of certain other Votes for Army Services, for the

said year.

6. Resolved, That the said application be sanc

tioned.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.

DRAINAGE AND IMPROVEMENT OF LAND (IRELAND) SUPPLEMENTAL (NO. 3) BILL. On Motion of Mr. WILLIAM HENRY GLADSTONE, Bill to confirm a Provisional Order under "The Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Act, 1863," and the Acts amending the same, relating to Kildare district, in the county of Kildare, ordered to be brought in by Mr. WILLIAM HENRY GLADSTONE and Mr. BAXTER.

Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 265.]

House adjourned at Two o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS,

Tuesday, 23rd July, 1878.

MINUTES.]-Sat First in Parliament - The Earl Waldegrave, after the death of his grand

father. PUBLIC BILLS-First Reading-Elementary Education (Elections) (No. 2) (240); Basses Lights (Ceylon) (241); Judges Salaries* (242); Adulteration of Food, Drugs, &c. (243); Bastardy Laws Amendment❤ (244). Second Reading Metalliferous Mines Regula: tion (229); Mines (Coal) Regulation (224); Elementary Education (Elections) (231), negatived; Masters and Workmen (Arbitration) (234); Grand Juries, Middlesex (235); Grand Juries (Ireland) * (225); Victoria Park (227). Report of Select Committee-Pier and Harbour Orders Confirmation (No. 3)* (202-239).

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- Report Statute Law Revision (No. 2) (217); Metropolitan Tramways Provisional Orders Suspension (220). Report-Petroleum (193); Tramways Provisional Orders Confirmation (No. 3)* (145). Third Reading-Summary Jurisdiction (200); Ecclesiastical Dilapidations Act (1871) Amendment* (233), and passed.

METALLIFEROUS MINES REGULATION
BILL (No. 229)—AND—

MINES (COAL) REGULATION BILL.
(The Earl of Morley.)

(NO. 224.) SECOND READING. Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.

THE EARL OF MORLEY: My Lords, I feel that I shall be consulting the convenience of your Lordships if I make the two Bills which deal with the regulation of mines the subject of comment in one and the same speech, because the matters to be treated of in connection with both are almost identical. And, my Lords, perhaps I may be permitted to express a hope that, on this occasion, I may be more successful than I have been in two or three recent instances in obtaining the co-operation of the noble Lords opposite. I need not dilate on the importance of these Bills. Manifestly they are of great importance, if we have regard to the number of mines and the number of people employed in them, for not fewer than 500,000 persons engaged in mines will come under the operation of these Bills. At present there are 3,142 mines under the regulation of the existing law, and in these 350,849 miners are employed. The number of new mines which will be included by the two Bills now before your Lordships will be 1,849, and the number of miners 92,565; so that there will be a total of 4,991 mines, and nearly 500,000 miners under the operation of these Bills. My Lords, the attention of Parliament was first called to the condition of the persons employed in mines by the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Shaftesbury), whose name has been associated with this kind of legislation for nearly half-asucceeded in obtaining an Act of Parcentury, and who, assisted by others, liament 30 years ago, which, supplemented as it has been since by several other Acts of a similar character, has wrought a great change in the moral and physical condition of the miners, and has thus shown that the noble Earl

and those who acted with him were | tally inapplicable to the other; and conamply justified in the course they took sequently the Government have this so long a time back. If your Lordships year endeavoured to deal with the subturn to the Report of the Commission, ject in two distinct Bills. At the same over which the noble Earl presided, you time, I think the noble Lord (Lord will find that sometimes children of five Kinnaird) will recognize features of his years were employed underground; that own child in the Metalliferous Mines at similar employment women occupied Bill, though I hope it will be found that a position which was physically and we have improved on the noble Lord's morally degrading; and that the moral effort. The subject of mines we divide darkness of the miners-men, women, in three great divisions. First, we deal and children-rivalled the physical dark- with the employment of women and ness of the regions in which they worked. children; secondly, with the question of The Mines Act at present in force is one inspection; and, thirdly, with the quespassed in 1860 by Sir George Lewis; tion of safety. I propose, with your but however beneficial that measure may Lordships' leave, to describe in each case have been—and that it was beneficial it what is the present state of the law, and is needless to say-yet the present state what is the amendment we propose. In of things calls for some attempt to be the first place, as to women and children, made to remedy the existing state of af- your Lordships are aware that no woman fairs, for since the passing of that Act is now allowed to work underground. there has been a large increase in the As to children, no child of less than 10 number of metalliferous mines and coal years of age is allowed to work undermines. In 1864 a Royal Commission ground, and children between 10 and 12 was issued for inquiring into metallifer- are not allowed to go underground unous mines. That Commission was pre- less on a certificate that they can read sided over by Lord Kinnaird. The and write; or unless on the condition Commissioners drew up a very careful that they are to attend school for six Report, on which was based the Metal- hours each week during their employliferous Mines Bill, on which one of the ment in the mine. After the age of 12 Bills now before your Lordships is there is no restriction whatever; neither founded. In 1867 a Petition was pre- is there any restriction in the case of sented to the House of Commons by the children who work aboveground. Now, coal miners of the country; that Peti- that is felt by the miners-and I think tion was referred to a Select Committee, it will be felt by your Lordships—to be and on examination of the statements of utterly inadequate, though in cases like the petitioners, it was found that they this it is hopeless to lay down any iron drew attention to a vast number of points rule. The present system as regards in the present state of the law, which, it children is inadequate, because, in the must be admitted, were well worthy of first place, there was no security that the consideration of Parliament. The the certificate came from a competent petitioners suggested certain alterations person. The examination of a child in the law, some of which were accepted, might be the merest farce. Then, in and some of which were rejected by the case the boy cannot read and write, atSelect Committee. Your Lordships will tendance at school twice a-week for three find that many of the improvements re- hours each time is not sufficient to enable commended at that time are embodied him to obtain any usual amount of eduin the Bills now before the House. I cation. Now, this Bill proposes to amend shall say one word as to the history of the law in this manner. the Bills which have been introduced that no child under the age of 12 should since the Act of 1860. The noble Lord be employed in a mine. The Select Comto whom I have already alluded (Lord mittee on Metalliferous Mines thought Kinnaird) introduced his Metalliferous that was the earliest age at which chilBill two years ago, but withdrew it on dren should be allowed down in mines. the understanding that it should be There will be only one exception, and amalgamated with a Bill extending to this will be in the case of thin seam coal mines. It was, however, found mines, but not as a rule even in these. subsequently that the two classes of The exception is made in consequence mines were so different that the regula- of a Petition, signed by thousands of tions applicable to the one would be to- miners, which states their opinion-afterThe Earl of Morley

It proposes

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