hon. Friend whether he intends to leave | marked out for themselves, we shall imthe matter as it now stands, or whether mediately announce the course which the Government will take any other we intend to take. But I think it is steps in the matter than they have better that we should wait and give them already announced? the course of the day to consider what has been stated, and if they see cause to alter the Notices they have given, or to take the course they have announced, it will be our duty to take the circumstances into consideration. There will be no delay on our part, and the moment we know what is intended to be done by those Gentlemen-whether the Motions are to be altered or not-we will at once state the course we shall pursue. MR. GLADSTONE: In answering the Question of my right hon. Friend opposite I would venture to express a hope that, although the adjournment of the House has been moved, it will not be supposed that this is a fitting occasion for a general discussion of the question. I trust the House has at once comprehended the purpose with which the very clear, and, I think, dispassionate, statement of my right hon. and learned Friend was made. It was stated by him to be only just to the House, which has been invited by Notices of Motion to a discussion of the general question of the Galway Election, that the House should be placed some time before that discussion came on, and at the earliest possible moment compatible with the discharge of his arduous duties, in complete possession of the view that he took as to the important and arduous duty imposed on him by the Act of Parliament. It was for that purpose, and to place the House in possession of certain information material for the cognizance of this House, that this statement was made. Then my right hon. Friend opposite naturally asked me whether, in conjunction with the statement of my right hon. and learned Friend, Her Majesty's Government intend to take any steps which they have not as yet announced to the House? My answer to my right hon. Friend will be that Her Majesty's Government have before them with perfect clearness the course which it will be their duty to pursue; but they have to recollect that there are other parties in this case, and especially there are hon. Gentlemen who have given Notice of Motions, and the Government wish to place these Gentlemen particularly in possession of the intentions of the Attorney General for Ireland. But the only question as to which the Government wish to be informed is, what course those Gentlemen severally intended to pursue. If we understand -and I do not ask for an answer at this moment, because they may wish for a few hours to meditate upon the statement which has just been made-if we understand that they intend to persevere in the precise course that they have VOL. CCXII. [THIRD SERIES.] MR. BUTT: As far as I am concerned, I am quite ready to go on with the Motion which stands in my name. I think the time has come when the House should have a distinct answer as to whether I shall be permitted to bring on that Motion on Thursday or not? [Mr. GLADSTONE: Oh, yes.] I thought there was some reservation. [Mr. GLADSTONE: No.] There is another matter that in some respects affects the privileges of the House. I understood the Attorney General for Ireland to say that the provision which existed in the old Corrupt Practices Act, by which the evidence was to be laid before him for his sole determination, was contained in the Election Petitions Act. I am not prepared to acquiesce in that view. So far as I can judge of the Election Petitions Act, I am disposed to think that provision does not apply to the Report of a Judge that these parties are guilty of under influence under that Act. I do not give that as a definite opinion; but I think it ought to be looked into before any final determination is arrived at: because, if the 9th section of the Corrupt Practices Act does not apply to the Report of a Judge under the Election Petitions Act, then I apprehend that, according to invariable practice, the Attorney General ought not to originate a prosecution unless ordered to do so by this House. I am by no means prepared to say that I acquiesce in the interpretation that has been put upon the Election Petitions Act, and I reserve to myself any course of action which I may think proper to take hereafter. THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. DowSE): What I stated was, that, according to my opinion, the 9th section of 26 & 27 Vict. c. 29, coupled 3 G DR. BALL: The Attorney Generals have conducted several prosecutions in the North of England for bribery, without any orders from the House. THE ATTORNEY GENERAL: I may mention that when I was Solicitor General under the late Attorney General, Sir Robert Collier, all our prosecutions of this description were instituted when the House was not sitting. with the 16th section of 31 & 32 of the | the scheme, because he believed it to be Queen, c. 125, imposes upon me the duty based on an unsound principle, and enwhich I have undertaken to discharge. tirely opposed to the principles which the I can only form an opinion for myself. Government urged upon the House in I may, however, state that my learned 1870 and 1871, but which they had now Colleague the Solicitor General for Ire- deliberately abandoned. He did not land is of the same opinion, and that blame the Government for having so the Attorney and Solicitor Generals for long delayed the introduction of the Bill, England agree in that opinion. The four although he had from time to time, Law Officers of the two countries are, along with other hon. Members, endeatherefore, all of one mind, and I intend voured to obtain from Government an to act upon that united opinion. earlier period for its introduction and discussion. It appeared to him that the House should consider well before it put the country to the vast expenditure of £3,500,000. The scheme of the Government was preceded by a Memorandum drawn up by a Committee appointed to consider the organization of the military forces of the country. That Memorandum was dated on the 22nd of February last, from which time the question remained dormant until the 15th of July, when the present Bill came on for a second reading, although only a week. previously a supplementary Report from the same Committee had been circulated among hon. Members. The supplementary Report showed very clearly that the Committee had not yet made up its mind as to what the scheme ought to be in its entirety. He thought the House was greatly indebted to the right hon. Baronet the Member for Droitwich (Sir John Pakington) for drawing the attention of the House the other night to the importance and magnitude of this question; and, for his own part, having the strongest conviction that this was not a measure adapted to this country, he rejoiced to see that the Members of the House had at last risen to a full conception of the vastness and importance of the subject. He had always said-and would say again-that the more this measure was understood by the country and the House, the less it would be liked. Nor had he been without witnesses continually coming forward to show that that was the case; and one of the last and most important was the hon. and gallant Member for West Sussex (Colonel Barttelot), who had at first accepted the scheme, but who did not now believe that it stood so well with the country as it had done at first. He had asserted what he would now venture to repeat, that a large number, if not the majority of the military men in this country were dissatisfied with the scheme MR. GLADSTONĚ: I may perhaps be allowed to explain what I thought I had made clear before-that is, that we do not intend to interfere with respect to the order of Motions on Thursday, but simply to open a day for the discussion of the Galway Election, either on an original Motion ourselves, or else not to interfere with the constituted Orders of the House. We shall, therefore, propose, I apprehend, in the ordinary course, that the Orders of the Day on Thursday should be postponed until after the Notices of Motion relating to the Galway Election have been disposed of. I understand that my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Limerick is prepared to go on with his Motion. [Mr. BUTT: Hear, hear!] If so, we shall certainly not interfere, or attempt to deprive him of his right to priority Motion, by leave, withdrawn. MILITARY FORCES LOCALISATION (EXPENSES) BILL-[BILL 222.] Henry Storks, Mr. Campbell.) the Bill be now read a second time." Question again proposed. MR. HOLMS moved that the Bill be of the Government. ["No, no!"] He repeated that he had evidence in his possession to show that was the fact. ["No, no!"] Among the numerous letters which he had received on the subject was one from Major General Sir John Lintorn A. Symonds, dated the 10th of July, and he expressed apprehensions that the new depôt centres about to be established at a cost of £3,500,000 would have a serious and damaging effect in postponing the real reform of the Army, which he believed could only be brought about by placing trained soldiers in the Reserve. The question, he said, hung altogether on the time that was necessary to make a soldier, and he asserted that 99 out of 100 officers were of opinion that three months' annual training of the Militia would not answer the purpose. The same officer expressed his conviction that the depôt centres would prove a failure, and that the system would lead to idleness and inefficiency among the officers and non-commissioned officers. For his own part, he believed that if the tongues of the officers of the British Army were let loose for one day, or if they were asked to vote by Ballot as to whether they were for or against the scheme of the Government, they would decidedly declare against it. Such an expression of opinion coming from an officer of such high standing was in itself a reason, among many other reasons, why the House ought to pause before agreeing to this Bill. But there was another strong reason for delay, and that was because the Committee was not up to that moment ready to declare that this was the right measure. The supplementary Report, which was presented at a most fortunate moment, made it perfectly clear that certain counties wherein depôt centres were not to be established did not wish their men to go to the centres which it was intended to establish in other counties. Therefore, the Committee proposed to leave the Militia battalions at their existing headquarters, at least in the first instance. They stated in their first Report that they desired to buy the Militia headquarters, stores, and barracks; but now they said they would not purchase them, in the first instance, at all events. Then, as regards Ireland, it was stated that complaints had been received from certain places in that country to the effect that barracks existing there were not occupied by the regular troops; and it was expected that one result of taking a number of barracks on creating depôt centres for the accommodation of the Militia battalions would be to cause the Government to station regular troops at those places where barracks existed. There was a further reason why the House should ask for a short delay. In counties where it was not proposed to introduce depôt centres, the Militia authorities and the county interest generally were in favour of such depôts; whereas most of the large towns objected to depôt centres being established among them. ["No!"] He adhered to the statement he had just made. For these reasons, the House would, in his judgment, do well if they left the measure unpassed in the present Session. The Organization Committee had, no doubt, considered this question for four or five months; but they had not yet decided what was the best scheme. If the present measure were not passed, they would have seven months longer to complete the scheme; and if it were a wise and a sound one it would live and be strong in February next, when it would pass without difficulty. On the contrary, if it were weak and a sham, as he believed it was, it would die as quiet and as natural a death as its best friends could wish. In reference to the first Report of the Committee, two points struck him forcibly. One was, that although £3,500,000 might be the maximum cost in relation to the 66 depôt centres, it would not be the entire cost in relation to the scheme, because the counties where it was not proposed to locate depôt centres would ask to have them established there. Besides, every depôt centre would become a spending centre, adding every year to our enormous Army Estimates. It would be found by-and-by that this measure was intended to do little beyond extending the Militia, and establishing certain recruiting depôts. The Committee in their supplementary Report spoke of this as a system devised expressly for the benefit of the Militia; but if the Militia was the force on which the Government intended to rely, the House should have been told so before voting. the money for the abolition of purchase. The Government in this Bill completely abandoned the principles which they had laid down in 1870 and 1871. On the second reading of the Army Enlist much where it did 25 years ago. There were many Members present better acquainted with the facts than himself. [Mr. CARDWELL: Hear, hear!] He had said that the term of enlistment now was really the same as 20 years ment Bill, the Secretary of State for He had supported the Government loyally through the whole of the abolition of purchase controversy, believing that the officers of the Army would be really professional in the future, more thoroughly under the control of the War Office, and therefore men who would more quickly bring up the Army and its Reserves to a proper standard of efficiency in drill and discipline. If he for a moment had thought that by taking this course he was encouraging and intensifying the Militia force, he should have voted against the Government obtaining one penny for the abolition of purchase. And what had been the "rapidity of execution" with which the formation of an Army Reserve had been pushed on? According to the Army Estimates now on the Table the Reserve Force number one-the only one on which they could rely-only showed 1,000 of an increase MR. CARDWELL was sure the hon. Member wished to be accurate; but he did not know what he could mean by saying that the increase in the Army Reserve only numbered 1,000 men. MR. HOLMS repeated his statement. Last year the Estimates made provision for 9,000 men of the Army Reserve; this year the number stood at 10,000, showing that this "rapidity of execution" of which the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government had laid such stress consisted in adding in 12 months 1,000 men to the Army Reserve. He believed he was right in stating that on the question of short service the Army practically stood very Mr. Holms fair proportion of the various branches of the service, and enlistment in the Cavalry, Artillery, and Engineers was still, as heretofore, for a period of 12 years. He did not think the Secretary of State for War would contradict that statement. Accordingly, the Government, even yet, were hardly upon the road to a short-service system, though the country were asked by this Bill to expend £3,500,000. He could not go Tydvil (Mr. Richard), who desired to as far as the hon. Member for Merthyr have no Army at all; but he was sincerely desirous of doing anything he could to diminish the evils attending a celibate Army. By a Report dated the 13th of July, 1871-the latest which he could find it appeared that out of 180,000 men in the Army, 57,000 were over 30 years of age, 20,000 were over 35, and a considerable number over 40. He looked upon the formation of an Army Reserve as the opening of a door by which these men might be allowed to go back to their own homes and to the ordinary occupations of life. Was there any Gentleman in the House who could tell, after all the discussions which had taken place, what the constitution of the Army would be in three or four years? The position of things at the present time could scarcely be considered sound, because it was clear that Englishmen were in a better position to predict the probable state of the armies of Europe in any given number of years than they were to foretell the probable condition of their own armaments. Was there anyone who would show where the economy was to come from? It cast a stigma and discredit upon England as a nation of business men, able in their private concerns to conduct enormous undertakings with profit, that she should at the present moment, in time of peace, be expending upon her Army a sum of money so frightful as that which appeared upon the Estimates. So far from economy being likely to result from the scheme now under consideration, he believed that if it were adopted they would in a very few years see the largest Estimates ever known in England | then the system was exposed. If it were in time of peace. If the scheme had been found that our Army system was equally proposed by the party now sitting in oppo- unsound, we might have to lament more sition it would have been so pulled to than the loss of a ship. He complained pieces in that House that there would that the House had not had an opporhave been no chance of its adoption by nity for the full discussion of this quesParliament. Even if they were then on tion. Great responsibility would attach the right road, many years must elapse to them if they adopted a plan of that before a sound system of Army adminis- kind without a free and full discussion. tration could grow up, because much If this measure should pass it would required to be done in the way of decen- retard our attainment of a sound military tralization, and the scheme proposed was system. He begged to move that the not a step in that direction. He could Bill be read a second time that day three not admit that the establishment of depôt months. centres, such as were contemplated by the Bill, would tend to increase the effi- Amendment proposed, to leave out ciency of the Reserve Forces. That could the word "now," and at the end of the only be done by increasing the area of Question to add the words " upon this the centres, and planting them in dis- day three months."-(Mr. Holms.) tricts where the men composing the Question proposed, "That the word Reserves could, when not in actual train-'now' stand part of the Question." ing, easily obtain employment suited to them. There were already in existence over 100 barracks, conveniently seated in different parts of the country, and he would suggest that they should be used in order to ascertain the practicability of some such plan as he had shadowed forth. It was proposed to establish recruiting depôts-recruiting traps he would prefer to call them-in different parts of the country; but he did not think they would be of any use as long as the present mode of treating soldiers remained in existence. Let the men be better treated and have greater inducements offered to them to join, and then it would not be necessary to do more than to advertise in the newspapers in order to obtain as many recruits as were required. He wished to see England strong in her peace; but no nation would, in his opinion, be likely to regard her as occupying a sound position for defence if they judged her by the present scheme of reorganization. The present Administration had done much good work of late years; but if they persisted in a scheme such as was now under consideration-increasing the Militia and neglecting the Reserve of trained soldiers -they would inevitably impair the defensive service of the country, and inflict injury, if not disaster, upon the Liberal party. What had occurred in the Navy ought to be a warning to them in dealing with the Army. They had thought that all was right at the Admiralty; but it turned out that much was wrong. A ship was lost, inquiry was made, and SIR JOHN PAKINGTON said, he was desirous to add a few words to what had been said by the hon. Member who moved the rejection of the Bill, because the House now approached the subjectmatter of the Bill under circumstances totally different from those which existed when the Bill was last before them. He agreed with the hon. Member in regretting that the Government had left this important discussion till so very late a period of the Session. It was to be lamented that a matter of such great importance, which had been opened to them in February, should have remained so long without attention. Now, the hon. Member had said that he would divide against the second reading, and, therefore, hon. Members must make up their minds as to whether they would support Her Majesty's Government. He (Sir John Pakington) did not feel it his special duty to support the Government; but it was his duty to give an honest vote, and he could not make up his mind that it was his duty to say "No" to the second reading of the Bill. The change proposed was of great magnitude, and the Government had brought it forward on their own responsibility, and the House had before them the anxious question whether they would be justified in attempting to stop the Government in proceeding with a measure which they thought calculated to give stability and efficiency to our military forces to a degree which they never before possessed. He regretted the change of |