War was a most unfair one. A noble and gallant Lord (the Earl of Longford) had stated that the Scientific Corps were very strongly represented at the War Office-the object of that assertion evidently being to lead their Lordships to the conclusion that in arriving at a conclusion on this question the War Department had been swayed by the Scientific Corps. In reply to such an argument, it was quite legitimate for his noble Friend (the Marquess of Lansdowne) to refer to the composition of the majority who voted in favour of the Address. He had not heard a single word from his noble Friend imputing unworthy motives to the other side; but when the noble Duke said it was monstrous to suppose that the views of noble Lords could be influenced in the slightest degree by their connection with the Army, or by their having relatives in the Guards and the Line, he must observe that, after all, human nature was human nature, and that esprit de corps not only existed but was very strong in the Army; and when a question like the one now before their Lordships was made the subject of discussion it was impossible that there should not be some bias imported into it. He was quite sure, however, that on reflection the noble Duke would be the last to suppose that the noble Marquess would charge any of their Lordships with being actuated by unworthy motives.

then, that there was this difference of
opinion, were they to be told by the
noble Marquess the Under Secretary for
War that they were actuated by inte-
rested motives in voting so moderate a
demand-because he must accept the
interpretation put on the remarks of the
noble Marquess by the noble Duke op-
posite? If the noble Marquess had no
intention of attributing motives to cer-
tain noble Lords when he said they had
served or had relatives in the Guards or
the Line-then he was at a loss to know
the meaning of his words. Again, their
Lordships had been told that this plan
had been debated for six years.
If any
debate such as that referred to by the
noble Marquess had been held, it must
have been held behind the official cur-
tain. The question of promotion-espe-
cially in reference to the Royal Engi-
neers, was one demanding the most
serious consideration, and Committees
had sat and reported upon it; but he
was not aware that the particular mea-
sure which now formed the subject of
debate had been recommended by a
Committee or had been put before their
Lordships in a practical shape. So far
as he knew, the other side of the ques-
tion was never really stated until the
other night. He had often heard the
matter mentioned in private conversa-
tion, but he never recollected that the
question as to whether or not this par-
ticular means of promotion in respect
to the Ordnance Corps had ever been
brought distinctly forward-certainly, he
had never heard of the scheme till last
February, and he was not now aware
that this measure had ever been debated

It had

LORD SANDHURST said, he would not enter into any question as to the composition of the majority-he proposed to go into the character of the Motion itself, and to ask what was the question involved in the Motion. That question was twofold. The first ques-in public before that period. tion put to their Lordships was, not whether it was desirable to do away with the measure of the Secretary of State for War, but whether it was desirable to have an inquiry into the grievance which it was alleged would be suffered by between 500 and 600 officers. The second question proposed to their Lordships was, whether the objects which had been suggested by the Committees of 1867 and 1869 would be carried out by the plan of the Secretary for War. On both these points the greatest doubts had been expressed, and from Returns which had been referred to in their Lordships' House in proof of those grievances-so far as a superficial examination of them enabled him to judge, he was of opinion that they had been established. Seeing, Earl Granville

long been admitted that promotion in the Ordnance Corps should be guaranteed

that it should not be of a temporary or provisional character; but he did not think it had been intended that the promotion of the officers of the Artillery and the Engineers should interfere with that general flow of military promotion which had been the object of inquiry and consideration by the Committees.

LORD ABINGER said, he could quite understand that the decision of this question must be a matter which caused considerable trouble. The Artillery and the Engineers were strong and compact bodies, and they did surround the War Office with very great power there could be no doubt of it-and he thought that they would eventually have to re

the Engineers. What he had said was that it was thought right the promotion in the Line should be maintained at what was called the "standard rate."

LORD ABINGER said, that of 279 officers who would be superseded by the first captains of Artillery not one had less than 18 years' service. He thought, therefore, that, even in accordance with the pledge of the Government, a preference should be given to those 279 officers before the first captains of Artillery were promoted.

LORD ELLENBOROUGH said, that with the permission of their Lordships, having had the honour of serving Her Majesty in both Cavalry and Infantry of the Line, and commanding a regiment of the latter (Infantry of the Line), he was induced to address a few words to their Lordships. It appeared to him (Lord Ellenborough) that Her Majesty's Government had overlooked, if not ignored, the claims of the British regiments lately belonging to the late East India Company, now incorporated in Her Majesty's Army, as regiments of the Line-namely, the 101st, 102nd, 103rd, 104th, 105th, 106th, 107th, 108th, and 109th British regiments, which con

cede from the step they had taken. His main object in bringing forward the Motion for the Address was that the officers in the Army should have an opportunity of making their case known. He thought that the remarks which had been made by the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Lansdowne) reflected unjustly upon those who were connected with the Army, and who disclaimed any wish to do injustice to the rest of the Army. No doubt the majority of noble Lords upon his side of the House were connected with the Army, many of them being soldiers themselves; but so far from that being a ground for impugning the credit of the majority who voted for the Motion, it simply furnished a reason for supposing that they knew something of the matter they were talking about. If the majority were to be spoken of as they had been, then it might be retorted that the minority was composed mainly of the Members of the Government, or those who were under great personal obligations to them. On the other hand, the majority contained a number of noble Lords who sat on the Ministerial benches indeed, if the noble Marquess looked into the matter, he would find that the majority had re-tained several captains of 27 years' sersulted from disaffection in the ranks on the Ministerial side. It was an inconsistent thing that the Government should take away the privileges of the Guards at the same time that they extended the privileges of the Ordnance Corps. The Artillery Corps was as much a privileged Corps as the Guards, and the latter thought it hard that their lieutenant and ensign privilege should be taken away -for it was granted in consequence of the gallantry displayed upon the field of Waterloo. Taking away this privilege would seem to imply that they never had any good title to possess it. Some years ago all the majors of the Artillery were made lieutenant-colonels, and now all the first captains were to be made majors. The Artillery officers would average 16 years' service before they were majors; but the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Ripon) had stated that the average length of service in the Line before a promotion to majority would be 18 years.

THE MARQUESS OF RIPON begged to interrupt the noble and gallant Lord. He had done nothing more than repeat the declaration of Mr. Cardwell. had said nothing about the Artillery or

He

vice, and one an infantry regiment of the Line (59th), a subaltern officer of 18 years' service. In conformity with what had fallen from the noble Lord behind him (Lord Abinger), he stated it was some source of heart-burning the rank held by captains and lieutenant-colonels of the Guards; but there was no such feeling in reference to the rank of ensign and lieutenant, as they were not brought much in contact with officers of the Line. With respect to the uncalledfor observations of the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Lansdowne) impugning the motives of noble Lords forming the majority who voted the Address, it sufficed to say that two of those noble Lords had commanded an Army-one, a noble and gallant Lord on this side of the House (Lord Strathnairn), and the other, the noble and gallant Lord opposite (Lord Sandhurst), at the present moment in command of the Army in Ireland, to show that there were grounds for inquiry, in respect to the promotion in the Artillery, in common with that of the Army at large.

Motion (by leave of the House) with drawn,

be swept away. Further, the Bill pro- | should be made liable for possible losses. vided that there need be no policies, but in connection with fire insurance transthe fact of insurance was to be entered actions. on a register specially provided by the Governors so that no stamp would be required.

LORD DINEVOR said, that the Bill was compulsory, and the clergy were bound to insure: but, unfortunately, many of the clergy had very small incomes, and they ought not in all cases to be required to insure to the full amount of the value of their houses. On the other hand, he did not think it would be quite fair to the Insurance Companies to establish the proposed monopoly, nor could he exactly see why those Companies should have been expected to insure a rectory at a cheaper rate than a layman's house.

THE DUKE OF RICHMOND urged his noble Friend not to press his Motion to a division, for he thought the Bill was one which the House ought not to sanction. His noble Friend had stated as one of the reasons for the Bill that the clergy were extremely anxious that such a measure as this should become law; but he had omitted to tell their Lordships what the reasons were which had actuated the clergy in desiring that such an arrangement should be made. He had also spoken of the advantage it would be to the poorer clergy; but he

LORD EGERTON said, that as to the noble and learned Lord's objection that the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty might exhaust that Fund in paying losses on their fire - insurance business, everyone knew that the premiums were always paid in advance, and that therefore there were always funds in hand so that the chance of coming upon the Fund at all, much more of exhausting it, was very remote. It was only to be expected that the existing Insurance Offices would object to the Bill; but representations had been previously made to those Offices that they should insure that class of buildings at lower premiums than were charged in other cases, in consideration of the smaller risks to which they were generally exposed-for the insurance of those buildings had formed a most profitable part of the business of the Insurance Companies-and it was only after their refusal to accept that offer, and at the earnest request of the clergy of the Church of England in Convocation as-(the Duke of Richmond) could not see sembled, that this Bill had been brought forward. The promoters of the Bill were fortified by the authority of eminent actuaries and other experienced persons, and the Regulations to be framed by the Governors for the purpose of carrying on this business were to be approved by the Lords of the Treasury and published in The London Gazette. The Governors were, moreover, to keep separate accounts, and lay before Parliament annually a report and balance-sheet. The Governors were, further, to frame every three years a scheme for the application of any profits arising from their insurances, which was to be laid before Parliament before acted upon. Most probably the application would be to the reduction of premiums.

THE ARCHBISHOP OF YORK, in opposing the Bill, pointed out that, under the 6th clause of the Bill, the principle of compulsory insurance was extended not only to the clergy, but to all the laity who held Church leases.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY was understood to say that he could not see on what ground Queen Anne's Bounty

how that advantage would arise, because the clergy would not be able to insure at much less than at present. The clergyman would be able to insure his house on exactly the same terms with the Sun and other Offices as with Queen Anne's Bounty. It would be wrong to compel the clergyman to insure with any Office against his desire, but should be at liberty to go to any Office from which he could obtain the best terms.

THE BISHOP OF WINCHESTER said, there was some misunderstanding in the minds of some of their Lordships as to the objects of the Bill. A noble and reverend Lord (Lord Dinevor) had spoken as if the Bill for the first time made it compulsory on the clergy to insure. But it was not the present Bill, but the Dilapidation Bill of last year, which introduced the obligation on a clergyman to insure his house. Insurance was therefore compulsory already. Parliament had put upon the body of the clergy, many of whom were poor, a liability in that respect which rested on no other persons in the land, their houses being regarded in a certain sense as public property.

LORD CAIRNS moved that the House go into Committee on the Bill this day three months.

Amendment moved, to leave out ("now,") and insert ("this day three months.")-(The Lord Cairns.)

EARL BEAUCHAMP suggested, as an alternative course, that the Bill be referred to a Select Committee.

Yet these persons were compelled to | would be done to the poorer clergy. lay out their own funds in insuring them The only persons who could have the against fire. Under those circumstances, slightest interest in opposing the Bill the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty were the Insurance Companies, whose were strongly urged by the Lower profit, as far as it arose from policies House of the Convocation of Canter-issued to clergymen, would be taken bury to invent a mode by which the new away and divided among the clergy pressure thus occasioned to the clergy themselves-who, in fact, would become might be in some degree lightened. their own insurers. It was well known With this view the Governors were ready that it paid a man to become his own to undertake this business of fire insur- insurer if his property was sufficiently ance in the hope that they might be large. It was bad policy for a large able considerably to reduce the charges landed proprietor to insure his farm now made for insurance, and also out of buildings; why, then, should not the their profits to aid the poorer clergy in clergy, on the same principle, combine other respects. The money saved would to insure themselves? go, therefore, first to diminish the cost of insuring; and, secondly, to the directly eleemosynary purposes of the Bounty Fund. The whole peculiarity of this Bill was that it required those insurances to be effected with the Governors, and not in any other Office; and the question was whether there was a sufficient reason for such exceptional legislation. It had been thought that Parliament having enforced the peculiar liability, might be expected to give a peculiar benefit as its correlative. Experience proved, on a very large inquiry, that the houses of the clergy were far less exposed to the risk of fire than the ordinary insurances taken by the Companies; and insurance being now for the first time made obligatory upon the clergy, it had been supposed that the existing Companies might consider whether they would not insure that parti-pulsory insurance with a particular body; cular description of buildings at a cheaper rate, but they had declined. The best possible advice had been taken on the subject, and this advice amounted to an assurance that a certain gain of several thousands a-year might be made for the benefit of the poorer clergy, and that the Board might undertake the duty without the smallest risk to the Bounty Fund. The question as to whether the leases of Church property should be included was a question of detail, which with other similar matters might be fairly dismissed from consideration for the present.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR confessed that, on the first aspect, the Bill had been unpalatable to him, and he had considered what could possibly be the view which could induce the promoters to bring forward a Bill which, on its first aspect, appeared so unreasonable. It was unreasonable that there should be compulsory insurance at all; it seemed unreasonable that there should be com

and it appeared unreasonable to expose a body like the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty to the risks of this business. But, on the other hand, it appeared that the clergy having been placed under an obligation to insure would be placed in a difficult position. In the first place, they would naturally seek the offices which took the lowest premiums, and therefore offered the worst security. Under these circumstances, it seemed reasonable that they should have means of insuring with perfect safety at a low rate. The Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty would offer that THE EARL OF HARROWBY stated perfect security, and they would in rethat the Company whose Petition he had gard to this matter have only one obpresented against the Bill made an al-ject to give the clergy the full benefit lowance of 10 per cent on the premiums paid by clergymen.

THE MARQUESS OF BATH said, if the Bill were rejected, a serious injury The Bishop of Winchester

of the system, without profit to themselves. Rather than that the Bill should be lost, he would support the proposal to refer it to a Select Committee,