tions which men carrying on a danger- | posed policy, justified the right hon. ous business were bound to take for the Gentleman, who could not have been safety of those they employed.

imagined to suspect its semi-fictitious character, in recommending me to a preliminary sphere of action, and, in good faith, those with whom I have been accustomed to act, readily agreed with me in accepting that advice. Sir, I may speak for them, I think, as confidently as for myself, that the right hon. Gentleman's counsel was taken chiefly because we had all along been of the same mind with him in this respect. We

The House resumed its Sitting at Nine never deemed it possible to anticipate

PROPERTY AND REVENUES OF THE sired it. For myself I can aver-and in

State it belongs to the whole people of the State in the same way as the Army, the Navy, the Civil Services, or the two Universities. The State, therefore, represented by the Crown, has a full right to inquire into the nature, amount, and application of the property and revenues which it enjoys. More than a generation has passed since any inquiry of this nature has been made. The Royal Commission of 1832, no doubt, stated the aggregate value of church property at that time with general correctnessbut they gave as little detailed information as possible, particularly with regard to the parochial revenues of the Estab

whose sole object is to shape the re- It is largely-I may say mainly-susligious faith, and guide the devotions of tained by national resources. It derives a community like ours, cannot safely be its special status and privileges from invested with a large amount of national national authority. It is governed by property, and at the same time be freed the national will, constitutionally exfrom national control in its application pressed. It exists for a professedly naof it. It is one of those instances in tional object. All the subjects of the which self-support and self-government realm have an equal right, within cermust go hand-in-hand. No wisely-tain conditions, to claim the benefit of ordered State can countenance an im- its offices. In its connection with the perium in imperio. No enlightened subject of the State can sanction the appropriation of national resources to the irresponsible use of any organization of men which seeks to dominate over the spiritual part of man's nature, without taking care to set legal bounds to that domination. I am told, Sir-and indeed I know that some hon. Friends of the object I have in view are disappointed and aggrieved that I did not ask for a Commission of Inquiry on the whole case, and that I have limited my proposition to that feature of it which is the least worthy of searching investigation. The pecuniary phase of the question in dispute, they say-and they say justly-lishment. is, of all others, the least important and the most sordid. In one sense that is so for the material possessions of a church cannot be held in comparison with the spiritual results it achieves. But, Sir, no Commission of Inquiry could ascertain spiritual results except by means of a definite and recognised spiritual standard, and this is precluded by the many differences of religious faith and practice in this country. The national judgment as to these results will be governed by opinion, and opinion can best declare itself in the deliberations and determinations of this House. I confine my Motion for Inquiry to the Property and Revenues of the Church of England, not because I be lieve them to present the most interesting or important phase of the controversy, but because the facts respecting them can be accurately ascertained; because a knowledge of them is necessary to a fair judgment of the whole case; and because, should the country hereafter see reason to adopt the policy of disestablishment, it will need full and minute information of this kind, to enable it to carry this policy into effect. Sir, I hold myself entitled to ask for this information on the ground that the Church of England, regarded as an Establishment, is a national institution.

Since then, a vast change has taken place both in the circumstances and the sentiments of the people of this country. Of one-half of them it may be said that they receive no direct benefit from this ecclesiastical institution. A very large number of them disapprove of the political basis on which it rests. They observe the clerical officers of it practically breaking away, day by day, from the bonds of legal discipline. They have a right to demand thorough investigation into that side of the question which falls most directly within the purview of the State-namely, the material resources by which it is upheld. There are many who think--I do not say whether rightly or wrongly-that it is not doing what might fairly be expected of it considering the means within its reach. That question is a fair one to raise, and I think the results of the inquiry for which I ask will be useful to show the means which have been placed at the disposal of this institution. Sir, the hon. Member for West Surrey (Mr. Cubitt) has a Notice on the Paper for a Commission to inquire into the property and revenues of the religious bodies "not included in the Established Church. That Notice looks very much as if it were meant to be a parody on mineand hence to claim only such consideration as may be due to a practical joke.

I hope, however, I do the hon. Member | the Crown to make this inquiry into no injustice in coming to the conclusion private affairs-it will be for Parliament that the purpose he had in view in giv- to judge. As to the information for ing his Notice must have been a serious which I ask, it strikes me, Sir, that even one. I form that judgment of it, because, the stoutest defenders of the State-Church as a jest, it is a very sorry one. I take system should not hesitate to put the for granted, moreover, that the hon. country in possession of it. They have Member's taste is too correct to admit of the most unwavering confidence in the his subjecting the House to anything in superiority of the existing over all other the shape of practical joking, and perhaps, systems of providing for the religious I should add, that his Notice of Motion, instruction of the whole community. assuming it to have been given in earnest, They profess-and, no doubt, in perfect exhibits precisely that ignorance or avoid- sincerity-to believe in the religious atance of the real points at issue-that tachment of a majority of all classes to begging of the question in dispute, and the National Church. They are fully that confusion of ideas in relation to the aware of, and naturally regard with disdifference between public and private approval, the efforts which are being rights-which the hon. Gentleman has made to change the relations in which again and again displayed in this House. the Chuch stands to the State. Both the But, Sir, although the hon. Member for parties in this controversy-perhaps the West Surrey shuts his eyes, with the greatest in modern times-may well destrongest will imaginable, against the sire to enjoy the advantage of a complete essential difference between endowments and accurate knowledge of the actual and other means of income held from facts of the case. Anything savouring the whole people of England and Wales, of mystery or of studied concealment in for the use of the whole people of Eng- a matter of this kind, is sure to stimulate land and Wales, and those given by imagination, to breed exaggerated and private individuals to private religious sometimes extravagant notions, and to communities, he cannot either annihilate favour a semblance of argument which or lessen that difference. What I ap- might possibly disappear in this light prehend him to mean is that the endow- of truth. Not only is the country "enments and other means placed at the dis- titled" to know, but all classes of the posal of the Church of England, are kingdom are "interested" in knowing, placed at the disposal of an independent all that can be known, in contradistincreligious community, and that the State tion from whatever can be only guessed, has the same right to inquire into the respecting a national institution which means of sustaining the spiritual instruc- takes charge of their highest interests. tions of the Independents or the Baptists, I trust this view of the Motion will preor the Methodists, as it has to investigate sent itself to those hon. Members who, the pecuniary resources of the Protestant at first glance, are opposed to it. They Episcopalians at present in connection really can gain nothing by concealment. with the State-a position in which I do They are likely only to give fictitious not think he will be confirmed by any strength to misconceptions, to excite poauthoritative expositor of constitutional pular prejudice, and probably to foster law. But, Sir, I take this opportunity false notions, which, for the sake of the of assuring the hon. Member that- Church to which they are attached, they always assuming the question of right had much better dispel. Sir, I will even to be held in reserve-I, for one, would venture to urge upon them a much higher willingly assist in acquiring for the State consideration. It will not be denied, I any information respecting the "ways apprehend, on either side of the House and means" of non-established religious that the vis vitæ, the moral power of communities which the State may deem Christian truth-of that truth which it necessary to collect for public pur- Parliament is so intent upon having poses. Assuredly they have no reason taught daily in its elementary schoolsto shrink from the fullest disclosure of may be, and usually is, very seriously the origin, nature, amount, or applica- impaired by being associated with any tion of the property or revenues appro- determination of the rulers and guardians priated to their use. Whether it would of the Church, to withdraw or to withbe consistent with general and recog-hold from public inspection all authentic nized principles of public policy to ask information on the subject of ecclesias

Mr. Miall

tical finances. It would be a misfortune, | another, and when compared with the not merely to the Church of England, schedules attached to the Reports of the but to religion, if this House, by refusing Ecclesiastical Commissioners, they all to inquire, should encourage large num- exhibit discrepancies which deprive them bers of our working men in their suspi- of all value for statistical and public cion that national religious organizations purposes. Well, Sir, parochial benefices are chiefly held together by the vast ex- may be roughly ranged into two classes tent of their endowments, and that these -those more ancient ones deriving the endowments-believed to be extravagant chief part of their annual revenue from because accurate information of them is tithes and glebe lands, and those more never given to the public-constitute the modern ones which, formed, as they principal end of the State Church, rather have been, for the most part, to overthan the necessary means to an end. take the wants of rapidly expanding Such a stumbling-block as this might be towns and populous places, have been promptly and effectually removed by the otherwise endowed. It would largely work of a thoroughly honest Commis- conduce to clear views on the question sion, and by the publication, in an au- of disestablishment, and still more of thentic form, of the information they disendowment, that the two categories will be able to collect. I trust, there- should be kept distinct. They stand fore, that no serious opposition will be respectively in a very different relation made to the Motion with which it is my to what is equitably due to them from intention to conclude. Now, Sir, if the the State. They each belong, it is true, House will kindly give me its attention to the same ecclesiastical system; but it for a few minutes-for I do not mean to can hardly be maintained that each detain it long-I will explain, as curcomes under the same conditions in resorily as possible, the kinds of informa- ference to the question of a continuance tion which a Royal Commission might or discontinuance of a National Estabelicit and authenticate for the use of the lishment. Now, Sir, I am anxious, first public. I will speak first of the financial of all, to obtain authentic information provision made in the parishes for the respecting the origin of the more ancient conduct of Divine worship and the spi- parochial endowments. Whence did ritual instruction of parishioners in they come? From what sources were other words, of the various kinds and they derived?-private or public, indisources of income which singly or in the vidual or national? Take, for example, aggregate constitute a benefice. Well, the old tithe system of rent-charge. Did Sir, I believe I am justified in saying that originate in private beneficence or that, in regard to these, no complete and in public law? The people of this counthoroughly trustworthy account of their try are being incessantly told that the financial value is available to the public. State did not confer her ancient paroTrue, it does not lack information on chial endowments on the Church, and some points; but then on other items no that what the State did not give, the public means of accurately ascertaining State has no right to take away. But is the truth exist. It is a fact, I believe, it historically correct to say that the State that since the Report of the Commission did not, as the effect of civil authority of 1832 was published, the number of and positive legislation, bring into existbenefices has been increased by nearly ence the great bulk of the tithe property 4,000; and it is also beyond question of this kingdom? I may be told that that considerable additions are being this is a purely archæological question, made, year by year, to the incomes of about which wide differences of opinion the poorer rectories and vicarages. But have been held by the best informed, in regard to none of these benefices is and that no Commission can authorithere access to any common source of in- tatively settle it. Sir, I dispute that formation which gives an authoritative allegation. My contention is that not detailed statement of the parochial re- only can the problem be finally solved, venues. There is, to be sure, The Clerical but, in my humble opinion, it can be Directory. There is also The Clergy List, best and most satisfactorily solved by the and there are several diocesan calendars. investigation of a Royal Commission. I But, unfortunately, the estimates of value shall be asked, cui bono? Well, Sir, a given in these works in respect of each thoroughly substantiated knowledge of benefice frequently disagree one with the origin of our parochial rent-charges

may materially influence the judgment | too, for the encouragement of agriculof a vast number of persons as to their ture, from payment of tithes during the moral right to approach the considera- first seven years. Well, Sir, between the tion of the main question at all. It is years 1760 and 1849, Parliament passed not fair to them, it is not fair to the not fewer than 3,867 Inclosure Bills, country, that they should be left under bringing under cultivation 7,350,577 easily removable erroneous impressions acres, and purely by this process and by which their view of the whole contro- no other adding them to the legally versy is greatly prejudiced. They are titheable area of the country. Now the told over and over again with unfaltering latest agricultural statistics show that assurance that the property of the Church the total acreage of land under tillage rests upon precisely the same foundations or pasture in Great Britain amounted in as the territorial property of every land- 1871 to somewhat upwards of 26,000,000 owner in the country-that to meddle acres. If we allot 24,000,000 of these with the one would be to shake the basis to England and Wales, and set down of the other; and that, inasmuch as it the number of acres redeemed from was given to the use of the Church of waste during the last 100 years at England by our pious forefathers out of 8,000,000, which is probably much within their own possessions, any alienation of the mark, it will appear-since 8 is just it from that use, even by the authority one-third of 24-that at least a third of of Parliament, can only be effected by the tithe property of the kingdom was "confiscation and sacrilege." These, Sir, brought into existence within the last are ugly words, and are freely resorted century. Well, Sir, a Royal Commisto by those who wish to scare moderate sion could bring out the truth of all this men away from fair and intelligent con-in dates and figures-it could carry the clusions on the subject. Either they are process back to Edward VI.'s reign, true or they are untrue. If true, let when the whole extent of land under the them be confirmed by evidence-if un- plough and depastured could not have true, let them wither beneath the light. exceeded above 6,000,000 acres, or about Of course, the House will not expect me a fourth of what it is now. Nay, it might to go into any discussion of this branch safely run back to the time of King John, of the subject. Even if I could lay down when lords of manors first ceased to the truth in regard to this matter with appropriate their tithes wherever they the most perfect exactitude, it would pleased, and might show by incontestable need the stamp of some unquestionable facts and figures that of eight-ninths at authority to give it general currency. least of the tithe property of this kingNow, Sir, a Royal Commission-unless, dom, since commuted into rent-chargeindeed, I am wholly mistaken in the that is, of 21,500,000 acres out of views I entertain-could demonstrate by 24,000,000, on the annual produce of a chain of indisputable facts, that the which rent-charges are now held due to old tithe system could not have origin- the Church-the tithes could not, by any ated in private liberality, and that, as to possibility, have originated in private the bulk of this kind of property, it ne- munificence, and could only have come cessarily grew out of the operation of into being by the creation of public law. public law. It will not be disputed, I But it will hardly be necessary for me imagine, that unenclosed, uncultivated, to remind the House that tithe rentor, as the Act 2 & 3 Edward VI., c. 13 charge is not by any means the only has it, "barren or waste ground" paid kind of ancient ecclesiastical endowment no tithe until it was "improved and devoted to religious purposes in parishes converted into arable or meadow land." which I have classed in the first category. Well, it was surely by the force of com- Sir, I wish we had as much trustworthy mon law, and not by the private benefi- information respecting glebe lands as we cence or piety of our Anglo-Saxon fore-have in the case of tithe rent-charges. fathers, that waste land, when brought under culture, or, in other words, when redeemed from waste and barrenness, became chargeable with tithe, and it was by statute law-namely, the 2 & 3 Edward VI., c. 13, that the land thus taken into cultivation was exempted, expressly, Mr. Miall

But, Sir, so far as my researches have gone, we have none whatever. It is, let me suggest in passing, a matter in which full and accurate knowledge is highly to be desired on other besides ecclesiastical grounds. The amount of landed estate held by corporations sole in a country of