cannot think the active participle is | proceeding is in some degree in keepat all out of place, for if I ever read ing with the policy which the Governa letter in which one gentleman cursed ment have announced in their manageanother it is this. The noble Earl ment of Irish affairs. I believe that to appears in two characters. As a Mem- appoint a Lieutenant who hounds on the ber of this House he is a model of mob against Her Majesty's Judges, and caution and discretion; but as a pri- who publicly eulogizes a rebellion against vate gentleman in Ireland he writes, the British Crown which is still in the under feelings of great indignation, the memory of living men - I believe that letter I have described. Like the Go- that is "governing Ireland according to vernor of Tilbury Fort-"The Man re- Irish ideas.' In that respect Her Malents-the Governor is firm." It is ob- jesty's Government have been perfectly vious that the noble Earl (the Earl of consistent; but it is useless to preach Granard) is not likely to be influenced the maintenance of law in Ireland-it is by any discussion in this House, for he useless to maintain the most stringent has been convicted of a previous offence, Coercion Act ever inflicted on that counand had your Lordships then passed any try-if they allow persons in high censure upon him he would probably positions to defy the law and point have shown more moderation; but with out its ministers to the vengeance of the regard to the noble Earl the Lord Lieu- people. tenant, I venture to take exception to the doctrine he has laid down. The question is not what Mr. Justice Keogh said there is no necessity for waiting for the evidence to be produced the noble Earl ought to judge of the act of his subordinate without waiting for that -the question is, whether the Lieutenant of an Irish county is or is not justified in publicly denouncing in vituperative terms the act of one of Her Majesty's Judges; and that question is in no way affected by what Her Majesty's Judge may have done. If he has done wrong, there are authorities who can deal with him; but it is not for a Lieutenant, representing Her Majesty, to point him out to the violence, anger, and fanaticism of a hostile mob. The noble Earl (Earl Spencer) has involuntarily drawn a terrible picture of the state of Ireland. He has told us that the officials charged with that duty are thoroughly awake to the necessity of looking after the life of Justice Keogh. Now, is it not a frightful state of things where a Judge of the land, having delivered such observations as he thought it his duty to offer-I will not now inquire whether they were justified or not, for I have not seen them, and do not know what they are-is so pursued by the hostility of the people among whom he lives that his life has to be protected by the intervention of the two highest authorities in the country? Is it not a still more terrible state of things when a Lieutenant should intervene to point out the Judge to the mob and exasperate their fury against him? I do not deny, indeed, that this The Marquess of Salisbury LORD DUNSANY said, he thought it would be ungenerous to press any charge against the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Granard), who had confessed that his letter was an imprudent one; but this case was an illustration of the present state of Ireland. No form of intimidation could obviously be more dangerous than intimidation towards the Judges: and he could not but think that this was only the beginning of other outrages to which the Judges and administrators of the law might be subjected. A Chairman of Quarter Sessions, according to an Irish paper, had been prevented from conscientiously discharging his duty by scurrilous letters, written by educated men. Such a habit could not grow without further demoralizing the whole community. Another Judge had received threatening letters, one of them written in Greek. This might be deemed an improvement, if Greek was a substitute for the blunderbuss; but, unhappily, violence also was still exercised. landlady had recently been shot in the vicinity of Dublin, where she naturally supposed herself safe. In former days agrarian murderers were occasionally convicted, but nearly 20 years had elapsed since such a criminal had been executed. EARL SPENCER: No. A LORD DUNSANY said, he should be glad to know when the last execution of an agrarian murderer happened. EARL SPENCER: If I am not mistaken, there were two executions in King's County in 1870 for an agrarian murder -a woman and a man. LORD DUNSANY said, he believed | no more honourable men than were to he was correct in saying that with those be found among the Roman Catholics, exceptions there had been no such exe- and they ought to be treated with percutions. fect equality; but it was most unfortunate that a Liberal Government should invariably look for support not to the liberal, but the illiberal, or rather the anti-liberal Roman Catholics. Such policy was deplored as a mistake by Roman Catholics themselves. LORD O'HAGAN: There have been others. When I was Attorney General, in 1864 I think, there was a special commission in Limerick, and three men were executed for a single agrarian murder. LORD DUNSANY was glad to hear it -he was glad to hear that there had been several executions for this crime in recent years; but he believed that in 19 cases out of 20 the murderer escaped with impunity. In past times, when convictions were obtained and the sentences were enforced, the Irish people did not hoot or villify the Judges, but looked upon them as having done their duty. The Judges, he might almost say, were not unpopular; at all events, their lives were safe-as safe as his own was, and that he always imagined to be as safe in Ireland as in England. Judges at that time fearlessly performed their duty; but he was obliged to add that Lords Lieutenant did not then judge the Judges and condemn them unheard. The evil was attributable to the long-continued policy of the Liberal party, that of first considering party interests-he wished he could say party principles, for that would be better-and then the interests of the public. The Government appeared to be under the delusion that Ultramontanism in Ireland was synonymous with Liberalism in England; whereas it was no more consistent with Liberalism in England than on the Continent. The noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Kimberley) took an optimist view of the state of Ireland, but he could not think that view a correct one. Many of the appointments made in Ireland were exceedingly improper and injudicious. He did not deny the right of the Government of the day to appoint their own partizans to office; but the distribution of the loaves and fishes ought to proceed on sound principles. As to the noble Earl (the Earl of Granard), he had of late years, since he became convinced of the Pope's infallibility, shown less moderation in public matters than was desirable, and his language had often been just such as Her Majesty's representatives in Ireland ought not to use it was too strongly tinged with sectarianism. There were THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH said, he looked upon the whole of these proceedings as a chapter of errors. His noble Friend (the Earl of Granard) had certainly done wrong; but, on the other hand, the language of the learned Judge was rather strong language. THE MARQUESS OF BATH said, what had fallen from the noble Earl who had just spoken showed that one of the most earnest supporters of the Government thought the language used by Mr. Justice Keogh almost seemed to warrant the language used by the noble Earl (the Earl of Granard). Under such circumstances, their Lordships had a right to be put in possession, before Parliament was prorogued, of the views of Government upon this most important subject. VISCOUNT LIFFORD said, that the old Roman Catholics in Ireland were among the most high-minded men in the country, and it pained them to find that in Galway even the confessional had been prostituted to party purposes. He denied that Mr. Justice Keogh had attacked "the Roman Catholic clergy." Those whom he attacked were individual priests, who had disgraced their order by inducing perjury, and acts and language dishonourable to any men. He believed that Mr. Justice Keogh had attacked these men entirely from his feelings of indignation as an old Catholic at such conduct. THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY said, he should like to know whether the Government would or would not answer the Question put to them by his noble Friend behind him? EARL GRANVILLE said, he had hoped that what had been said by his noble Friend the Lord Lieutenant (Earl Spencer) would have shown that while the Government did not desire, without sufficient opportunities for consideration, to give an answer which might involve an opinion, they would not waste a single day in considering the evidence, and he hoped to be able to inform Parlia- | not be the least objection that the Clerk ment of the opinion they had come to of the Works should point out what had upon the matter. But meanwhile he been done, and give any explanation could give the noble Marquess no infor- that might be required. But it should mation on the subject. be understood that such facilities would be limited to persons interested in the subject. House adjourned at Seven o'clock, to Thursday next, half-past Ten o'clock. MR. BUTLER-JOHNSTONE asked the Chief Commissioner of Works, Whether it is a fact that in August 1870 seven different preparations for preserving the stone were tried upon the Houses of Parliament; and, if so, whether any report as to the relative merits of those preparations has been issued; whether it is a fact that, with one exception, all those preparations have failed, and, whether there would be any objection to mark those several experiments with numbers, with a printed reference to the names of their respective inventors, for the information of Members and others viewing them? MR. AYRTON, in reply, said, that in 1870 eight different preparations for preserving the stone of which the Houses of Parliament were built were experimented upon. But sufficient time had not elapsed up to the present to enable a satisfactory report to be made as to the result. He did not think it would be desirable to convert into a sort of advertisement these experiments of the parties who had applied their various substances to the Houses of Parliament. But if anyone interested in the question desired accurate information there would Earl Granville THE NEW POST OFFICE BUILDINGS. QUESTION. MR. WINN asked the Chief Commissioner of Works, Whether he intends to hold the Contractors of the New Post Office Buildings to their engagement in the event of their being unable to fulfil their contract within the specified time, owing to the strike now existing between the builders and their workmen? MR. AYRTON, in reply, said, he had already explained to the House that this contract was to have completed the Post Office by the 31st of December last, and that for various reasons that time had been extended; but no question was at present before the Board for the termination of this contract, in consequence of the suspension of the works. When the buildings were completed the question would necessarily arise whether the work had been unduly delayed with reference to the terms of the contract, under which there was a penalty imposed of a certain sum per week for every delay. When that time arrived it would have to be considered whether or not the penalty should be enforced; and, in arriving at a conclusion, of course all the facts and circumstances would be taken into account. METALLIFEROUS MINES REGULATION Bill considered in Committee. Clause 23 (General Rules). Amendment proposed, in sub-section 4, line 6, to leave out the word “load," and insert the words "produce of the mine in transit exceeds ten tons in any one hour over any part thereof, and.". (Mr. Pease.) Question proposed, "That the word 'load' stand part of the clause." Amendment agreed to. SIR DAVID WEDDERBURN observed, that the first of the "General Rules" in the present Bill was almost identical with the first general rule in the Coal Mines Bill, but he found no provisions in the present Bill for enforcing compliance with the rule. He, therefore, wished to know what means the Home Secretary looked to for securing the efficient ventilation of metalliferous mines? Bill reported; as amended, to be considered upon Friday, at Two of the clock, and to be printed. [Bill 236.] MINES (COAL) REGULATION BILL. (Mr. Secretary Bruce, Mr. Winterbotham.) [BILL 150.] CONSIDERATION. Order for Consideration, as amended, read. MR. BRUCE said, that in accordance with a promise which he had made on a former occasion, he had framed a set of clauses with reference to the ap MR. BRUCE said, that many of the provisions suited for coal mines were inapplicable to mines of the character now under consideration; but what was required was that there should be a suffi-pointment of examiners for the purpose cient amount of ventilation. Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clauses 24 to 37, inclusive, agreed to. Clause 38 struck out. Clause 39 and 40 agreed to. Remaining clauses agreed to. MR. BRUCE brought up new Clauses, (Prosecution of offences) (Application of Act to the Isle of Man), which were agreed to, and added to the Bill. LORD GEORGE CAVENDISH moved to insert the following clause after Clause 10 (Mines where not more than twelve persons are employed underground). of granting certificates, which he hoped Iwould meet the views of hon. Members generally. What he proposed by those clauses was that the Secretary of State should have power to appoint nine persons-three from the class of owners, three from the class of mining engineers or managers of mines, and three from the class of working colliers-who should form a board for the purposes of the examinations in question. The way in which those clauses would operate in practice was, that the Secretary of State would communicate to those respective bodies that they should name to him, through the Inspector, the persons whom they wished to represent them on the board, and there would, he thought, be no difficulty in each of the three classes which he had mentioned meeting with that object, and thus, with the assistance of the Inspector, a board would be formed for the purpose of appointing examiners. The board would frame regulations, too, as to the conduct of the examinations. He was well aware that those examinations must be conducted under very elastic conditions, inasmuch as the various character of the mines throughout the country required the possession of very different qualifications. He had, to the boards the duty of framing the therefore, deemed it expedient to leave rules. They would select the persons to MR. BRUCE said, he thought the best conduct the examinations, and the Secremode of proceeding would be to post-tary of State would have the power of pone the present discussion until the Report had been agreed to. "In any mine where not more than twelve persons are employed underground, the returns specifying the quantity of mineral or other material sold from such mine shall be made by the barmaster or other officer employed to collect the dues or royalty, and the owner or agent of such mine shall not be required to send any return specifying the number of persons employed in or about such mine." MR. BRUCE undertook, if the words were an improvement, that they should be inserted in the 10th clause. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. CAPTAIN BEAUMONT expressed a hope that the Bill would be reprinted with Amendments. MR. LIDDELL hoped, in any case, that a considerable interval would be allowed to elapse. There was no wish to delay the measure; but it was extremely desirable that the changes which had been introduced should be well understood by all parties interested. fixing the number and remuneration of the examiners. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving, after Clause 24, to insert the following clause: (Appointment of examiners for certificates.) the United Kingdom certificates of competency "For the purpose of granting in any part of to managers of mines for the purposes of this Act, examiners shall be appointed by a board consti tuted as hereinafter mentioned. A Secretary of State may from time to time appoint, remove, and re-appoint fit persons to form such board as follows: namely, three persons being owners of mines to which this Act applies in the said part of | the United Kingdom, and three persons employed in or about a mine to which this Act applies in the said part of the United Kingdom, not being owners, agents, or managers of a mine, and three persons practising as mining engineers, or coal viewers in the said part of the United Kingdom; and an inspector under this Act and the persons so appointed shall during the pleasure of the Secretary of State form the board for the purposes of the said examinations in the said part of the United Kingdom." Clause brought up, and read the first time. On Question, "That the clause be read a second time," ber of members. He was disposed, howin the present clause. ever, to support the machinery proposed MR. FOTHERGILL thought the functions of the machinery of the clause were too limited, as they only applied to the appointment of the board to select examiners. He could not see any rule laid down as to the number of examiners to be appointed or from what class of persons they were to be selected. DR. LYON PLAYFAIR pointed out that while the members of the board, who were only to elect the examiners, were to be paid under the Bill, there was no provision for the payment of the examiners themselves, who were to do the work from year to year. It would be far better to make provision for the MR. WOODS-who also had a clause payment of the examiners than for the on the Paper referring to the same sub-payment of the board who elected them. ject-asked what number of boards it was intended to form? There should certainly be, at the least, one in each Inspector's district. MR. WHEELHOUSE suggested that the fairest way of constituting the boards in question would be to have placed upon them two coal-owners, two mining engineers, two underground colliery managers, and two practical miners, leaving one person to be appointed by the Secretary of State. It was of the greatest importance, he contended, that that class should be represented on the boards, on whom the whole of the practical operations in a mine depended. MR. LIDDELL begged to congratulate his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary upon the success with which he had met the difficulties in the case, which in the eyes of the House appeared to be very considerable. He (Mr. Liddell) should prefer the board of his right hon. Friend to that proposed by his hon. and learned Friend who had just spoken. What was wanted was that local knowledge should be obtained in the ultimate selection of the Board of Examiners, and that there should be a more clear definition of the districts. They had hitherto proceeded on the supposition that the districts would be Inspectors' districts; but he would like to see a more accurate definition of the area of the locality for which the selection was to be made. There ought to be a good Board of Examiners, and he thought it would be better that it should consist of a small than of a large numMr. Bruce MR. BRUCE said, that in order to enlarge the area of selection he would propose after the words "mining engineers" to insert "agents or managers of mines." As a matter of fact, the manager of a mine had gone through his apprenticeship to the work before he was put in the position of manager, and might be a very fit person for selection. The reason why he had not mentioned either the districts or the number of examiners was that he was very anxious not to fetter the discretion of the Secretary of State by extra regulations. In the first instance, undoubtedly, the present districts should be taken; but if a subsequent Secretary of State were to diminish the districts, it might still be expedient to have a board for every district. As to the number of examiners, he had already suggested that it should be three, and in the first instance it would be so fixed. He did not think the hands of future Secretaries of State should be tied, but that they ought to be allowed to make orders and revoke rules from time to time. The hon. Member (Dr. Lyon Playfair) had hit a blot as to the payment of examiners, but that would be removed by a future Amendment, which would make provision for their payment. MR. RODEN desired to enter his protest against the adoption of the clause. There was no election in the case, and he thought it little better than a farce to call that a representative board which was merely nominated by the Secretary of State. |