MR. WARTON moved, in page 3, line 5, after the word " grantor," to insert the words "for this purpose.' It was only necessary the solicitor should be solicitor to the grantor for this purpose, and those were the words which were suggested in the Paper circulated by the Council of the Incorporated Law Society. If the Attorney General would look into the matter, he would find the insertion of the words would make the clause read more effectively. Amendment proposed, in page 3, line 5, after the word " grantor," to insert the words "for this purpose."-(Mr. Warton.) Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted." word "registrar," in line 16, for the purpose of inserting words to provide that the registrars of the County Courts should be the registrars for the purposes of the Bills of Sale Acts, 1878 and 1882, and should file a copy of the bill of sale, and of the affidavit, and a copy of all the particulars required by the principal Act, in accordance with the provisions contained in the principal Act, and within three clear days after such filing and registration should transmit, in the prescribed form, an abstract of the contents of the bill of sale to the registrar acting under the provisions of the principal Act. The only object of this Amendment was to provide that in country districts the registrar of the County Court should be the registrar under the Act instead of the registrar in London. He believed that the adoption of that regulation would bring about a great saving of expense, and, in the end, no harm would be done, because an abstract would still be sent to London. It would be of great advantage in the country districts, where many of these transactions took place, that a bill of sale should be registered, in the first instance, in the County Court of the district. In the Committee a strong opinion was expressed that bills of sale in country districts should be registered in the County Court of the district. MR. MONK begged his hon. and learned Friend's pardon. The Com. mittee were unanimous the other way. THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENRY JAMES) said, the proposition, although it would do no good, would do no harm. He could not, however, MR. H. G. ALLEN said, he had been insert the words where the hon. and perusing the answers and responses learned Member proposed to place them, made to the Lord Chancellor upon cerbut at the end of the clause. With that tain queries as to the working of the modification he would accept the words-Bills of Sale Acts, and he found that "And is the solicitor of the grantor and not the solicitor of the grantee for this purpose." Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Amendment, to strike out the word "is" after the word "and," in line 5, put, and agreed to. Further Amendment, to add, at the end of the Clause, "for this purpose," put, and agreed to. MR. MONK proposed, in Clause 10, line 7, to leave out the word " eight," and insert "nine." Amendment agreed to. MR. H. G. ALLEN moved the omission of the end of Clause 11 after the there was a great concurrence of opinion, if not among Members of the Committee, yet among the most experienced witnesses examined, that these bills of Courts. Mr. Falconer, a Judge of one sale should be registered in the County of those Courts, of very great experience, said that all bills of sale should be registered in the district where the assignor resided, and it was only necessary to send to the London office a duly examined abstract. A similar response had been received from the County Court Judge of Bedford, who said that the registration of bills of sale in the district County Courts would very much diminish the expense of registration, and such was also the opinion of country, when an abstract of them could be sent down to the registrars of the County Court where the bills of sale originated. The information would be obtained in that way much earlier by the world in general than if bills of sale were required to be registered in the County Courts of the district in which they were given. many other witnesses of the greatest ability and experience. The alteration which he proposed was calculated to give facilities to those who lived in the country to discover what incumbrances there were on the property, and to diminish the expense now incurred; and also the delay in searching for these bills, which at present involved a considerable expenditure of money and time to persons living in remote country districts. They were now required to come up to London in order to conduct their inquiries; and the unnecessary cost thus entailed would be altogether obviated if they were registered, in the first instance, in the district County Courts. No inconvenience would be entailed in London, because the abstract would be sent there within three days of its being filed. Under these circumstances, he proposed to amend the clause in the way suggested by the Amendment. Amendment proposed, In page 3, line 16, to leave out from the word "registrar" to the end of the Clause, in order to insert the words "of the county court in whose district such places are situate, and if such places are in the districts of different registrars, then each such registrar shall be the registrar or registrars for the purposes of the Bills of Sale Acts, 1878, and 1882, and shall file the copy and affidavit, and enter, keep, and index in a register to be kept by him in the office of the said county court, the particulars required by the principal Act in the manner and in accordance with the provisions and regulations contained in the said principal Act with regard to the filing, entry, and registration thereby required, and shall also within three clear days after such filing and registration, transmit an abstract in the prescribed form of the contents of such bill of sale to the registrar acting under the provisions of the principal Act, who shall file, keep, and index every such abstract in the prescribed manner, and shall not be required to file, keep, or index the copy, bill of sale, affidavit, or other particulars relating thereto, except as aforesaid."—(Mr Henry Allen.) Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill." MR. H. G. ALLEN pointed out that the clause contained a provision requiring an abstract to be sent to London. MR. MONK said, that in that case the information would come to London later than it did at present. At present it was transmitted immediately; but under the amended clause there would be a delay. He hoped the House would be unanimous in rejecting the proposal. SIR JOSEPH M'KENNA also expressed a hope that the Attorney General would not accept the Amendment. Question put, and agreed to. MR. MELDON said, they had now arrived at a most important clause of the Bill; and he felt so strongly that legislation in this direction was quite wrong that after having first called attention to the serious omission in the clause-Clause 13-he intended to move the rejection of the clause altogether. Clause 13 sought to apply what was known as the "Disputed Ownership " doctrine in a modified form to the Bill. In 1878, the principal objection made to the passing of this clause was that so long as the "Disputed Ownership " Clause was in operation no bill of sale could be looked upon as a bona fide or valuable security at all. He wished to point out out that the validity of a bill of sale did not depend upon the grantor being in possession of the goods at the time of the bankruptcy, but whether or not the grantee under a bill of sale was able to come into possession sooner than a wholesale trader who had advanced money on the security of a bill of sale. MR. MONK said, the Committee were Wholesale traders might live some disquite unanimous in agreeing to the pro-tance away from the place where the vision of the Bill as it stood at present-person who gave the bill of sale was namely, that all bills of sale, which, by the way, must all be sent up to Somerset House to be stamped, should be registered in London. The central Registry was easy of access to everyone. It was a very simple thing for agents in London to take a note of the bills of sale registered here and transmit notices to the VOL. CCLXVIII. [THIRD SERIES.] residing; but the usurer would probably live on the spot, and would possess much better means of knowledge and be able to find out more rapidly whether the trader was about to become bankrupt or not. In the case of such bankruptcy, within 24 hours he would be able to obtain possession of the goods, and F thereby make valid the bill of sale | lation had not been very carefully conwhich was his security; whereas the sidered. What was the position of wholesale dealer, who resided at a dis- affairs? He quite admitted that bills tance and had no means of knowing the of sale ought to be swept away altomoment at which a trader became bank-gether; but, at the same time, they had rupt, would lose his money in conse- no right to allow bills of sale to be a quence of the "Disputed Ownership "legal and valid security, and then surClause being put in force. The Act of 1878 gave a further protection to the bond fide holder of a bill of sale, because it was not sufficient to show that the goods were in the actual possession of the grantor; but it was also necessary to show that the possession or apparent possession was with the consent of the person to whom the goods really belonged. This clause was said to be a compromise between the two; but it changed the law materially against the bond fide holder of a bill of sale, because now, no matter what efforts the bonâ fide wholesale dealer made to obtain possession of the goods, even by violence, the money-lender could keep him out, and this new clause actually prevented him from obtaining the value of his goods. This was a departure from the law never known in the Bankruptcy Law before. The most material provision of the Bankruptcy Law was that such a transaction should be with the consent of the person who was the owner of the goods; and he did not think the Attorney General would agree for one moment to accept the clause in its present shape. Having pointed out this omission in the clause, he wished to say, further, that the matter was one upon which he felt strongly, regarding it, as he did, as backward legislation; and he should, therefore, have to put the House to the trouble of dividing upon the subject. He wished the House to understand clearly the position of the question. This Bill was brought in, owing to the action of the Associated Chambers of Commerce, in order to prevent usurers from lending money at exorbitant interest; but it was very well known that in the way of ordinary trade there were many persons who supplied goods on bills of sale, and that a large number of bills of sale were held by wholesale dealers. It was not wise, he thought, to make a material alteration in the law to the prejudice of these wholesale dealers, simply because there was a moment of panic, owing to the fact that usurers were in the habit of lending money on bills of sale. He thought this attempt at legis round them with such provisions that they only became traps and pitfalls to induce persons to invest money in unreal security. Instead of applying the ordinary doctrine of bankruptcy and disputed ownership, it was suggested that it should not apply in a case where the ownership had occurred within a year. The question of validity would not, therefore, apply to goods that had been taken into the possession of the grantee in 12 months; but the bill of sale was made to turn upon the fact whether the goods had been seized within 24 hours or not. Twenty-four hours after the bankruptcy had occurred possession could be taken by the grantee; and this clause, in that case, did not apply, and the Bill, if passed, would, in his opinion, afford no protection at all. The clause simply gave an opportunity to those who lived on the spot, at the last moment, having allowed the trader to obtain all the benefit of having a reasonable possession of the goods, and having, perhaps, by an act of collusion, received early information to take steps for obtaining possession of the goods; whereas a bona fide holder of a good bill of sale, who did not possess the same means of information, could not do so. The simple effect of this clause was to enable the bankrupt, just before his bankruptcy, to give notice to some favoured creditor who held a bill of sale, and that favoured creditor immediately stepped in and obtained possession of the goods-his bill of sale being valid, while the bond fide creditor was absolutely shut out. The whole matter was fully considered in 1878, and subsequently, in reference to the Bill which dealt with Ireland. He believed that most people would be willing to abolish bills of sale altogether; but if they were to be valid securities, it was highly improper to surround them with pitfalls and traps such as had been introduced into this Bill. The Attorney General had stated that this was only a compromise, and that it was going back, to some extent, in the direction of the old Act. The old law was not satisfactory; but he thought he had shown the House that this clause, as it stood, was very much worse than the old law as it was in 1878. He begged to move the rejection of the clause. pression "or other body" was one that did not occur in any of the Companies Acts, the wording of which, he thought, ought to be followed in the Amendment. He suggested the omission of the words. Amendment proposed, to leave out for retaining the words objected to, and MR. MONK said, he saw no reason Clause 13.-(Mr. Meldon.) THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENRY JAMES) said, that the clause, as affecting the commercial community, was one that had met with the approval of the Associated Chambers of Commerce, who, as he believed, were perfectly well able to protect the interest of those concerned. The hon. Member had, however, pointed out a defect which was quite unintentional; and if he would withdraw his objection to the clause as a whole, he should be perfectly willing to agree to the insertion of the words "by consent and permission of the true owner." MR. MELDON said, he should have no objection to withdraw his Motion for the purpose of amending the clause, if he could afterwards move its rejection. MR. SPEAKER: I must point out to the hon. Member that, if the clause is amended, he cannot propose the rejection of the clause at this stage of the Bill. MR. MELDON said, in that case he would adhere to his Motion for the rejection of the clause. Question put, "That Clause 13 stand part of the Bill.” The House divided:-Ayes 66; Noes 7: Majority 59.—(Div. List, No. 61.) Amendment proposed, In Clause 15, page 4, line 7, to leave out from "Company," to end of Clause, and insert "or other body is wound up under The Companies Act, 1862,' and the Acts amending the same, any bill of sale given by such Company or body within twelve months next preceding the commencement of the winding-up, shall, as against the liquidators of the Company or body, be void, in respect of any personal chattels which, at or after the commencement of the winding-up are in the possession or apparent possession, or the order and disposition of the said Company or body."-(Mr. Monk.) MR. MELDON said, there were some words in this Amendment to which he objected, inasmuch as they would make the clause really unintelligible, and create, moreover, great difficulty. They were "or other body" wound up under the Companies Act of 1862. The ex was willing to agree to their omission throughout the Amendment. The words "or other body" in line 1, and "or body" in lines 3, 4, and 5 of the Amendment struck out. Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment, After the word "are," in line 7, to add "by consent and permission of the true owner.' (Mr. Attorney General.) Amendment agreed to. Amendment, as amended, agreed to. first "and," and insert" on payment of a fee of In Clause 18, page 4, line 29, leave out the one shilling, or such other fee as may be prescribed, and subject to such regulations as may be prescribed, and shall be entitled at all reasonable times."-(Mr. Monk.) Amendment agreed to. Amendment proposed, In Clause 18, page 4, line 33, after " stamp," insert" Provided, That the said extracts shall be limited to the dates of execution, registration, renewal of registration, and satisfaction, to the names, addresses, and occupations of the parties, to the amount of the consideration, and to any further prescribed particulars.”—(Mr. Monk.) Amendment agreed to. MR. O'SHEA said, with the object of making the Bill apply to Ireland, he should move the omission of Clause 19. Amendment proposed, to leave out Clause 19.-(Mr. O'Shea.) Question proposed, "That Clause 19 stand part of the Bill." MR. MONK pointed out that the original Bill did not apply to Ireland, which was under a separate Act. He trusted the Amendment would not be pressed. THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENRY JAMES) objected to the Amendment, the effect of which would be to make the present Bill applicable to Ireland, where there was a distinct system of legislation in respect of bills of sale. The result of engrafting the pro visions of this measure upon the system now in force could only be productive of mischief. It MR. MONK said, he thought it was right that there should be one system of legislation in respect of bills of sale. The want of it had, no doubt, given rise to a deal of confusion in Ireland. great had given the greatest possible power of extorting enormous sums from unfortunate individuals in Ireland. The mode by which it was proposed to remedy the evil was not a good one; it should be done by the hon. Member, or someone else, this Session introducing a Bill to deal with the law of Ireland. If the hon. Member would do that, the measure would have the support of those who had been Members of the Bills of Sale Act Committee. MR. O'SHEA said, that, after the recommendation of his hon. Friend, he should withdraw the Amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Bill to be read the third time upon Thursday. PLACES OF WORSHIP SITES BILL. (Mr. Summers, Mr. Richard, Mr. William M'Arthur, Mr. Alderman Cotton.) [BILL 97.] COMMITTEE. Order for Committee read. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."-(Mr. Summers.) MR. WHITLEY said, he hoped the hon. Member would not proceed with the Committee stage of the Bill at that hour of the morning (2.40). It would deal, he saw, with the lands of Corporations. There were many provisions in it which would have to be carefully considered. MR. SUMMERS said, that it would, perhaps, be better to postpone the Committee until Thursday. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. House adjourned at half after ARMY (DESERTERS). MOTION FOR A RETURN. LORD TRURO, in rising to ask Her Majesty's Government, Whether the number of recruits shown in the General Annual Returns is that of exclusively new men recruited to the Army, or whether it includes the numerous oftrepeated re-enlistments of deserters; and to move for a Return showing the numdeserters, said, that he had recently ber of re-enlistments respectively by deserters, said, that he had recently asked the Government to furnish the Annual Army Returns earlier in the Session. Some objection was taken to his request; but he was glad to hear that the Government had taken an opportunity of considering whether they could grant it. But, while it was extremely desirable that the Returns should be furnished earlier, it was still more important that they should be fuller and more accurate, with more uniformity in classification and headings. He had been informed that, even in the Army, considerable trouble and difficulty had occasionally arisen from the headings of the Returns not being uniformly |