Merchants, and Traders of the United | şideration, the hon. Member would feel Kingdom had passed a resolution sup- it was hardly fair or reasonable to ask porting almost fully the Bill which he now moved should be read a second time. This was a question which affected the whole trading community of the Three Kingdoms, and it was one which demanded the attention of Parliament. They had been promised, from time to time, that a Bill should be introduced meeting the requirements of the Chambers of Commerce; but unfortunately the state of the Business of the House had been such as to preclude the possibility of the President of the Board of Trade introducing his Bill. Those hon. Gentlemen whose names were at the back of the Bill now under consideration were not at all anxious to in any way intercept the President of the Board of Trade. On the contrary, if the right hon. Gentleman would consent to the second reading of the Bill to-night, they would be quite disposed to postpone the Committee stage until such reasonable time as the President of the Board of Trade might wish to be allowed him for the purpose of introducing his own Bill. There were very considerable questions involved, which traders deemed of the utmost importance. They had known in the past what had been the very serious objection to too much officialism. The trading community generally were anxious to avoid undue officialism, and this Bill proposed to give to the creditors such power that they might have both the responsibility and direction in matters which affected very largely their own interests. At that late hour (1.10) he did not think it right to go into any particulars as to the merits of the Bill; but he asked the House to read the Bill a second time, in order that they, as Representatives of large commercial interests, might take up a position befitting them when the President of the Board of Trade should see fit, and have the opportunity of bringing forward the measure which he foreshadowed during the last Session of Parliament.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."-(Mr. Barran.)

MR. CHAMBERLAIN said, he was sorry he could not assent to the proposition which had just been made by his hon. Friend the Member for Leeds (Mr. Barran); and he thought that, upon con

the House of Commons to commit itself to the principle of a Bill on so important a subject as the present at that late hour. The hon. Member had said that, in consequence of the lateness of the hour, he did not feel justified in trespassing upon the House; and, consequently, the House had not had the advantage of hearing any explanation of the clauses of the Bill, or of the general principle it proposed to carry into law. If they passed the second reading with the assent of the Government they would be committed to the principle of the Bill. He could not undertake to pledge the Government to the Bill. It was an extremely inadequate measure for dealing with a great subject; and if he thought the present a fair opportunity he should explain to the House that there were many objectionable features of the Bill which would tend to increase the scandals of the existing system rather than remove them. His hon. Friend talked about the importance of the creditors possessing the power to prevent anything like extensive officialism. The present Bill would tend to sustain the system under which there had been a quasi-official management; but there was no efficient supervision to prevent abuse. Officials of the Trade Protection Societies had, in many cases, had the management of bankrupt estates; and the control, if properly looked after, answered well. Of course, in some cases there had been great abuse. He supposed it was of no use to ask his hon. Friend to withdraw the Bill; and, therefore, it was his duty to move that the debate be adjourned. If his hon. Friend would take another, and a fitting opportunity, he should be glad that his Bill should be discussed. He hoped he would be able, at a later period of the Session, to introduce the Bill, which was promised in the Queen's Speech, for dealing with the subject. In that case he supposed it might be the pleasure of the House to refer the Bill to a Grand Committee, if the proposal for Grand Committees on Trade and Commerce should meet with the approval of the House; and he should not see any objection to the Bill of his hon. Friend, as well as any other Bill dealing with the same subject, going before the same Committee. That, however, should only be done after the House had had a

full opportunity of discussing the prin- | ciple of the Bill on the second reading. He would move that the debate be now adjourned.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned." -(Mr. Chamberlain.)

MR. EDWARD CLARKE said, there was an ominous tone in the right hon. Gentleman's voice when he spoke of the prospect of the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Barran) getting another opportunity for discussing the Bill. The President of the Board of Trade said it would be his duty to move the adjournment of the debate; but if his hon. Friend could get another opportunity of bringing forward the Bill, possibly he might enter into the merits of the measure. He quite agreed with the right hon. Gentleman that this was a late hour to discuss matters of this kind; but the opportunities that private Members had of bringing in Bills was so very limited that they were glad to avail themselves of any that presented themselves. The President of the Board of Trade might have shown a little more respect to the opinions of the Associated Chambers of Commerce, and to the other commercial bodies in the country, than to dismiss in so cavalier a fashion a Bill which had their unanimous support. The right hon. Gentleman said the Bill contained many mischievous provisions, not one of which he had condescended to point out to the House. The right hon. Gentleman said the Bill would continue the present officialism, and then he said the officialism was that of the Trade Protection Society. If no other measure could be passed this year-and there was very little hope that the right hon. Gentleman himself would be able to pass any measure this year on the Law of Bankruptcy-if no other measure than this were passed, and if this measure contained but one of its clauses, it would be an enormous advance and improvement in the Bankruptcy Law of the country. If only that section of the present Act which allowed liquidation by arrangement could be repealed, it would be of great service to trade. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would not persist in his Motion for Adjournment. He had said that ultimately he would be prepared to consent to this Bill being submitted to the same Select or Grand Committee as the Bill he

hoped to shortly bring forward. The Bill
now under consideration would, before it
could be referred to a Committee, have to
be read a second time. It would not be

fair to adjourn this debate and allow
his Bill, with all the advantage of the
the right hon. Gentleman to bring in
Government authority for the arrange-
ment of matters in the House, and very
probably leave the hon. Member (Mr.
Barran), and the other hon. Gentlemen
who were acting with him, in the position
of being unable to bring their Bill on
again; and, therefore, precluded from
having it submitted to the same tribunal
as the Government measure.
He hoped
a division would be taken on the ques-
tion of adjournment.

MR. MONK regretted to hear the President of the Board of Trade speak in so doubtful a manner as to the probability of his being able to introduce his own Bill on this subject this Session. The right hon. Gentleman was as well aware as they were that the commercial community were looking anxiously for some move on the part of the right hon. Gentleman; and he (Mr. Monk) and others had heard very serious complaints that the Bill of the right hon. Gentleman had not been brought in before this, and circulated in the country. The Bill which had been brought in by his hon. Friend had been carefully considered by the Associated Chambers of Commerce. It was an amending Bill; it was a Bill amending the Act of 1869. His right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade intended to bring in a Bill entirely repealing that Act, and altering materially the Law of Bankruptcy; still, as that Bill was in embryo, and as they did not know whether the right hon. Gentleman would be able to introduce it at all this Session, he hoped the House would not refuse the second reading of the Bill of the hon. Member for Leeds. As the hon. and learned Member for Plymouth (Mr. Edward Clarke) had said, the Bill must be read a second time before it could be sent to a Committee. He must confess he had very serious doubts whether the Grand Committee of which his right hon. Friend had spoken would ever come to anything. At all events, the Bankruptcy Bill would not pass into law, if it had to be sent to a Grand Committee, this Session. Under the circumstances, his hon. Friend was quite entitled to go to a division.

VISCOUNT BURY said, it was remarkable that in a year which was distinguished more than any other for Army changes there had been no adequate opportunity afforded for discussing those changes in either House of Parliament. The exigencies of the public service in the other House of Parliament had House adjourned at half obliged the Estimates to be taken at a

MINUTES.]-PUBLIC BILLS-First Reading-
Army Alternative Punishment * (68).
Second Reading-Referred to Select Committee-regard to recent legislation in the Army.
Stolen Goods (64).

Order of the Day for the Second Read- night the noble Earl opposite (the Earl ing read.

they were very little better off than they | No doubt, many Ministerial speeches were in 1877. They were still in a had been made on the subject of Army transition state, and would have, in case reform; but they necessarily lacked the of necessity, to resort to the system which value of an official Paper such as he had been denounced by the late Adju- suggested. tant General Sir Charles Ellice as the most pernicious system which had ever been invented by the ingenuity of man -namely, to call upon men to volunteer from one regiment to another, and thus to leave the already attenuated home regiments still further emasculated. The noble Earl opposite would, no doubt, say that a great deal had been done since Mr. Childers and he had been in Office, and he (Viscount Bury) was not going to deny it. He believed they had improved the condition of the Army; but he would go so far as to say, without fear of contradiction, that there was not one officer in 100-nay, not one officer in the whole Army-who thoroughly understood the position in which the Army stood at the present moment, so much confusion having been created by different Acts of Parliament, Royal Warrants, General Orders, and other Regulations. Those details were only known to those within the War Office, and he doubted if they were known to half-a-dozen even in that Department. They had now a new Army, for the old had entirely disappeared. The system, too, of Indian reliefs had been so altered that they had now a local Army in India, and the system of promotion had been altered so as to fit in with the short service. He did not wish to put a definite Resolution which would produce a debate; but he wished to explain to his noble Friend the difficulties under which those who took an interest in the Army laboured. The public also took an interest in the Army; but that interest would be increased if they could follow, in an intelligible manner, the changes which had been made during the last 10 years. He wished, therefore, to ask his noble Friend (the Earl of Morley) whether it would not be possible to issue a Memorandum, showing the various changes which had been made since Lord Cardwell introduced the short service system, and showing the effect of all the Acts of Parliament bearing on the Army, all the recommendations of Committees and Commissions, and the suggestions which had been made in their Office in reference to the Army, in order to show, at a glance, the actual condition of the Army?

THE EARL OF MORLEY said, he was sure their Lordships would not find fault with his noble Friend (Viscount Bury) for taking that opportunity of bringing those matters before the House. He quite agreed with his noble Friend as to the desirability of making the changes which had been, and which were being made in the Army intelligible alike to officers and to the public. As to the importance of being able on brief notice to place a small Army in the field, there could be no doubt about it, and the object of the War Office had been to place the battalions not at the strength they would be at in time of war, but at a higher strength, which would give a margin, allowing untrained or unfit men to be left at home, and yet having a fullstrength battalion fit for foreign service. It had been the wish of the Government to bring about such a state of things as that; and if they had not as yet succeeded it would be admitted that the battalions had been much improved in strength, and that generally they were in a state of transition. They had been so since 1871, and it was inevitable that it should be so until the short service system, and the changes of organization which resulted from its adoption, had come thoroughly into effect. Steps which had recently been taken had been in the direction pointed out by the Predecessors of the present Government, and with a natural and necessary result of what had been initiated by Lord Cardwell, and lately developed by Lord Cranbrook and Colonel Stanley. At the present time the Government were endeavouring to carry out a most important change, which would give them a certain number of battalions ready to go abroad at short notice. Lord Cardwell's system, it was said, was based on the assumption that when one battalion was abroad another would be at home; but it also embraced the supposition that the battalions at the top of the Roster should be of a certain strength; but for various reasons-and he (the Earl of Morley) did not blame one Government more than anotherthe conditions on which the noble Lord had based his calculation, no doubt,

House in Committee accordingly.

a reason

had not been rigidly adhered to. The | but he would take an opportunity of War Office saw the importance of keep- talking over the subject with him, and ing the battalions comprised in the First would see what could be done. Army Corps always fit for service. But Motion agreed to. those battalions could not be brought up to their new establishments and rendered efficient by a stroke of the pen. EARL FORTESCUE pointed out that To increase their strength it was neces- last Session he had given Notice of a sary to pour recruits into them-that Motion for a Return as to the impresswas the only course which could be pur- ment of means of transport for solsued; and consequently at the present diers in Ireland, under certain ancient time, no doubt, the proportion of young statutory powers empowering the Exesoldiers in the high-strength battalions cutive in Ireland to authorize the imat home was greater than was desirable, pressment of horses and animals of all and their condition could not be regarded kinds, together with vehicles and boats as quite satisfactory. That difficulty of all descriptions, for the service of had been aggravated by the fact that Her Majesty, under an order of emerthe changes of organization had necessi-gency, enabling any field officer to tated alterations in the Roster, bringing impress any of these at weaker battalions suddenly higher up able price. To his surprise, last year on the Roster. It could only be reme- he (Earl Fortescue) was requested to died by time. Soldiers serving in the abstain from so moving by the noble First Army Corps would not be sent to Under Secretary of State for War (the the Reserve before completing seven Earl of Morley), by the direction of the years' service, and by degrees the bat- Secretary of State (Mr. Childers), who talions would harden into efficiency; considered it undesirable for the Public and when the temporary circumstances Service to introduce the Motion at that referred to, which necessitated rapid re- time. It seemed to him that the moral cruiting, had passed away, he hoped effect produced by the spectacle of a and believed that the object which all car owner being allowed successfully to parties wished to attain would be gained refuse the use of cars to troops, with -namely, they would have a number of out recourse being instantly had to battalions sufficient to constitute a small the powers conferred by statute upon Army for sudden emergencies, or for the Executive to enable the officers to small Colonial wars, fit to take the field impress them, could not fail to have at very short notice. As to there having the worst influence, by encouraging the been no discussion on the condition of spirit of defiance to the law, and bring. the Army, the noble Viscount rather ing contempt upon the Executive in the exaggerated the state of the case. Al- minds of people of all classes. He read most all the great changes that had been with shame and indignation accounts of carried out of late years had been ably soldiers and constabulary, weary and discussed and ably criticized, and if they way-worn, marching along the road, had not, it was not the fault of the Go- while jeering Land Leaguers drove bevernment who had carried them into side them in cars which had been reeffect. He thought that, from the dis- fused to them. He wished to ask whecussions which had taken place with ther, during the past year, since he gave regard to recent reforms, they met Notice of his Motion, the powers of the with the approval of the public gene- Government in that respect had been rally, and it was only fair that time exercised at all? Turning to another should be given for the development subject, he would like to have some inof the changes which they had al- formation about the localization scheme, ready effected. How far it would be as to how it was likely to work in possible to carry out the suggestion Ireland. Owing to the influence it exerof his noble Friend, by drawing up a cised in encouraging recruiting, it, no Memorandum showing all the changes doubt, answered admirably in loyal disthat had been introduced since 1871, tricts-that was, he was glad to say, and collating them with the recom- throughout all England, Wales, and mendations of the various Committees Scotland; but it might not be as safely and Commissions which had sat upon applied to the county of Tipperary in the subject, he could not at present say; Ireland. He desired to cast no impu