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24. You have it in a book, intituled, "Rules and Regulations for the use of all Orange Societies, as revised and corrected by the Committee of the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland: Dublin, printed by the Orangemen in 1800"?—I have. 25. It appears in this book that there was a committee appointed to prepare the regulations?-It would appear so.
26. The names of the committee are in print in the second page of the book? -They are.
27. The first name is Thomas Verner, grand master of Ireland?-It is.
28. Will you have the goodness to turn to page 4 of this book; you perceive the obligation of an Orangeman; the words are, " I, A. B., do solemnly and sincerely swear, of my own free will and accord, that I will to the utmost of my power support the present King George the Third, his heirs and successors, so long as he and they support the Protestant ascendancy"?-Yes.
29. Is that the declaration you took?-I can only speak from recollection; it is a book which came into my possession by accident since this period; but I preserved it because it is so old.
30. At page 5 there are the leading articles, and those articles stand thus: "First, That we will bear true allegiance to his Majesty King George the Third, his heirs and successors, so long as he or they support the Protestant ascendancy, and that we will fairly support and maintain the laws and constitutions of these kingdoms"?-Yes.
31. "Secondly, That we will be true to all Orangemen in all just actions, neither wronging one, nor seeing him wronged, to our knowledge, without acquainting him thereof. Thirdly, That we are not to see a brother offended for sixpence or one shilling, or more if convenient, which must be returned next meeting if possible. Fourthly, We must not give the first assault to any person whatever that may bring a brother into trouble. Fifthly, We are not to carry away money, goods or any thing from any person whatever, except arms and ammunition, and those only from an enemy. Sixthly, We are to appear in ten hours' warning, or whatever time is required, if possible, (provided it is not hurtful to ourselves or families, and that we are served with a lawful summons from the master), otherwise we are fined as the company think proper. Seventhly, No man can be made an Orangeman without the unanimous approbation of the body. Eighthly, an Orangeman is to keep a brother's secrets as his own, unless in case of murder, treason and perjury, and that of his own free will. Ninthly, No Roman Catholic can be admitted on any account. Tenthly, Any Orangeman who acts contrary to these rules shall be expelled, and the same reported to all the lodges in the kingdom and elsewhere"?-Those appear in the book.
32. In page 10 of the book you have produced you will find the following rule:-" Rule 14. That as regiments are considered as districts, the masters of all regimental lodges do make half-yearly returns of the number, names and rank of the members of their lodges, to the secretary of the grand lodge; but that they shall not make an Orangeman, except the officers, non-commissioned officers and privates of their respective regiments; and that they do remit to the grand treasurer of Ireland the half-yearly subscription, as well as that which is immediately to take place"?—Yes.
33. At page 10 of the book you have yourself produced, that Rule 14 has a pencil-mark attached to it?—Yes, so it appears.
34. In page 13, the fourth rule, under the head of Rules for the formation of Districts, is in these words, "That district masters shall make returns of the number, names and places of abode of the members of the different lodges within their respective districts to the grand master of their county or city every six months"?--It appears there.
35. Were you admitted to the Loyal Orange Institution here on your arrival in England, in consequence of your being a member of that body in Ireland?
36. By what document or in what way were you recognized as a member?--As well as I can recollect, I was received on a mere declaration that I had belonged to an institution in Ireland. I had no document, nor do I recollect, indeed I am persuaded that I was not examined; I was taken on the circumstances under which I presented myself.
37. Did you use signs and pass-words previous to your introduction?—I do not think I did, for I do not think they were in my recollection.
38. Can you say whether the same signs and pass-words as were used in Ireland were introduced to lodges in London?-They were not always.
39. What was the difference?-There was a difference at times; there was not always the same system; there was one system at one time for Ireland and 13 August 1835. another for England.
40. When you became a member of the lodge here, how long was it after you became a member before you were appointed secretary ?-Perhaps two years.
41. Who was the grand master of England?-I understood it to be Colonel Taylor; he is dead.
42. Was he aide-de-camp of the Duke of York?—I believe not.
43. Do you know who he was?-Yes, from hearsay; he was a man of property in Lancashire, and I believe was colonel of some volunteer regiment. I do not know that he was ever in the regular army.
44. Was not the Duke of York grand master?-Not at the time of which I am now speaking.
45. Before you were appointed secretary, did you attend any meetings of the lodge here? I did, several.
46. Where was the lodge held?—The lodge to which I belonged in England was held at the British Coffee-house in Cockspur-street; I formed that lodge myself; I find on recollection that I did not join the body in Clerkenwell; I only occasionally visited it.
47. Did you obtain a warrant to authorize your holding that lodge?—I did. 48. What was the nature of it ?--I was not the master of that lodge; I acted as secretary.
49. Did you form that lodge under a warrant from the grand master ?—Yes.
50. Was that signed by Colonel Taylor?-I think not; at that time the grand lodge was held in Manchester; Colonel Taylor resided in that neighbourhood. The grand lodge at Manchester was composed chiefly of the working classes, with two or three gentlemen belonging to it.
51. In what year was that?-It was in the year 1819 or 1820; I think Colonel Taylor resided at Mostyn.
52. Did you ever attend that grand lodge in Manchester ?-No.
53. But the warrant under which you held the lodge was signed by him?As well as I recollect, it was from that source; it was from the grand lodge at Manchester.
54. Where was the lodge at Clerkenwell held?-At a common public-house, the Coach and Horses, I think, on Clerkenwell Green.
55. Who was the master of that lodge?-I really cannot recollect.
56. What number did you meet?-Sometimes very few in number, perhaps under 20.
57. How many did you meet in this new lodge at the British Coffee-house?-Perhaps from a dozen to twenty on occasions; but at that time the society was quite in its infancy in London.
58. How often did you hold your meetings?--I think at that time once
59. Were there many other lodges at that time in London?-None but those two at that time.
60. After you had acted as secretary of this lodge, you say you were appointed secretary to the grand lodge?-The grand lodge was formed by me in London on the death of Colonel Taylor; I was the person who proposed to His Royal Highness the Duke of York to become grand master; it was at my suggestion.
61. What was the date of that?-It was the beginning of 1821.
62. Who was the deputy grand master?-On the Duke of York's acceptance of the appointment, the grand lodge was ordered to be transferred to London, and then the new body was formed; my Lord Kenyon was requested by His Royal Highness, in the first instance, to take the office of deputy grand
63. By whom was the late Duke of York requested to become grand master? -I suggested to His Royal Highness the advantage to the institution if he would condescend to accept it; His Royal Highness was exceedingly cautious, and there was a good deal of hesitation till certain inquiries were made.
C. E. Chetwoode,
64. What do you mean by His Royal Highness being extremely cautious?When I first made the proposition to His Royal Highness, a great deal had been
said from time to time of its alleged illegality. His Royal Highness observed, that, as a member of the Royal Family, and from his station and principles, he could not join any institution as to the legality of which there was a doubt; 13 August 1835. but that if it was cleared up to his satisfaction, he should be happy to render it any assistance by his patronage; but it must be clearly proved that the society was strictly legal.
C. E. Chetwoude,
65. What measures were taken to satisfy His Royal Highness upon that subject?-In the first instance, I furnished him with the book of Rules and Regulations which was then in existence.
Of the English.
66. Do you mean of the English or the Irish? 67. Where are the rules and regulations?—I have not a copy of them, but I have a copy of the code formed from them. This new book was formed under the opinion of eminent counsel.
68. Were the rules revised in consequence of that objection of His Royal Highness?—The matter was referred to the opinion of the then AttorneyGeneral, I think Sir Robert Gifford, and I gave all the information in my power. It was then thought advisable to consult eminent counsel, so as to put the legality of the institution beyond a question. The counsel consulted were Sir William Horne, Mr. Serjeant Lens, Mr. Gurney, Mr. Gaselee and Mr. Adolphus.
69. Were those steps taken in consequence of the objection taken by the Duke of York?-Precisely so.
70. From whom did you obtain those rules and orders you first submitted to the Duke of York, when you requested him to become grand master?I think I had them from Manchester. It was the book I had received with the warrant.
71. Do you mean the warrant for the grand lodge?—No, the private lodge, which sat at the British Coffee-house.
72. Did you compare those rules and regulations with the rules which you state to have existed when you were a member of the Orange Lodge in Ireland? -I cannot say that I did.
73. Could you give the Committee a copy of the first book?-I really do not think I have a copy. I got the notice only at 11 o'clock last evening, not being at home, and I have not been able to lay my hand upon it.
74. You have got some documents?-I have not any officially belonging to the institution; I may have some scraps among my private papers, which I have not had time to examine.
75. How many have you brought with you?-I have the book I have already produced, and the book in my hand, and I have a blank warrant.
76. Did you lay a case before those legal gentlemen whom you have mentioned, and get their opinion thereon?—I did.
77. What did you do with those legal papers?-I had them among my private papers, but I think during my absence from London in 1823, they were put aside in some way. I wished for my own satisfaction to recur to them, and I have never been able to find them.
78. At this time you were secretary to the grand lodge in Great Britain ?— I was.
79. A case you say was laid before counsel ?-The then existing rules were by His Royal Highness's command, with the sanction of my Lord Sidmouth, who was then one of the Secretaries of State, laid before counsel, and on the opinion of counsel a new set of rules was formed. Several cases were laid before counsel.
So. Those were drawn by an attorney?—Yes.
81. Who was the attorney?-They were all drawn up by Mr. Harman, then of Jermyn-street.
82. Is he living?—I cannot say. He was in France some time since.
83. Did you pay him his costs for drawing the case?—Yes; all the costs were paid.
84. Did you keep an entry of the receipts and disbursements of the society? -I did shortly after, but at that time the grand lodge was not formed.
85. You kept regular accounts?—I kept accounts, but I cannot say whethe they were very regular.
$6. Have you got those accounts?-No; all the books I had were taken out my chambers by some persons connected with the Orange Society during
my absence. The chambers I occupied in Lyon's Inn (my own private cham- C. E. Chetwoude, bers) were broken into, and all books and papers, not excepting my private correspondence, were then abstracted.
87. In what year was this ?-In the year 1832.
13 August 1835.
88. And those books have been taken so late as three or four years ago from your chambers ?—Yes.
89. Are you able to state who took away the books from your chambers?— I have heard who did it, but I was not there and cannot know it of myself.
90. Who was the party you suspect ?—I have heard a man of the name of Condell being the principal; he was tyler or messenger; another man of the name of Osborn, who also acted as tyler, and a person of the name of Pain, a member of the society. Those were the persons; they got in at my chamber windows, and took away even my private papers and accounts.
91. Can you state where those parties reside?-I cannot.
92. Have you heard what became of your books?-I have heard that the man Condell took them to his own place, and delivered up a part of them to Colonel Fairman, but that he did not give up the whole.
93. Do you know why he kept any?-He denies having kept any, but I say that there were others which do not appear to have been given up,
94. What were the books you kept; was there a general day-book of the proceedings of each committee ?-There was.
95. Were there entries of every thing which passed during the time the grand master was in the chair?-That book which purports to be a book of minutes is a copy of what we call the printed reports.
96. By whom were those printed reports prepared?-Always by me whilst I was secretary.
97. Are the committee to understand that the secretary, preparatory to the meeting of the lodge, prepared a report of what had passed during the preceding recess? He merely prepared the rota of business for the grand lodge.
98. Is that one of the reports alluded to signed by you?-The same being shown to the Witness.]—It is.
99. What does that purport to be?—On this, as on all other occasions, I prepared the rota of business.
100. Is that signed by you as the deputy secretary ?—Yes.
101. Signed by you?-That was printed from my signature.
102. Are the Committee to understand that was a correct copy of the proceedings of that day?-In some degree it is, but not altogether; there is part of the routine of business done by the committee; part was done by me on my own responsibility; the whole was then embodied in the printed report.
103. Was that laid before the committee during the time of the sitting of the lodge ?--The committee usually met the day or the day or two before the meeting of the grand lodge, to examine the accounts and to discuss the propriety of the measures I suggested.
104. That was a grand committee?—Yes.
105. At each meeting of the lodge the grand committee made a report to the grand lodge of what they had done?-Sometimes, not always.
106. Does that paper in your hand contain the report generally made by the grand committee of their proceedings?-It would appear so upon this occasion; this was one of several other occasions when the various matters were discussed in the committee. I could not always get a committee together. In those cases I brought forward the most urgent part of the business to the grand lodge, leaving those matters which could be postponed for the succeeding meeting of the committee. [The same was delivered in and read. Vide Appendix, No. 2.]
107. You deliver that printed report as a correct copy of what took place on the occasion it refers to ?-Not on all points.
107.* Were you present when that record of thanks moved by Lord Kenyon to His Royal Highness, the grand master, was moved, and is that a faithful account of the proceedings-Those general resolutions were all passed, but there are some parts of proceedings which I consider the common routine business; those parts I inserted in the report myself.
108. This purports to be a special meeting of the grand lodge held at Lord Kenyon's on the 17th of February 1831; did that special meeting take place?— It did.
109. Was Field-Marshal Prince Ernest Duke of Cumberland present?- He was.
C. E. Chetwoode,
110. Was Lord Kenyon present?—He was.
111. Was the Duke of Gordon present?-So it appears.
112. Have you any recollection of who were present except from the paper? 13 August 1835. I have no recollection but from that document.
113. Was Colonel Fairman present?-I believe all that are named there were present.
114. You were present?—I was.
115. You are stated to be deputy grand secretary of Great Britain ?—Yes. 116. Condell and Osborn, who you say got the books, were acting as grand tylers? Yes.
117. Do you know that those persons had your books?-Some time since that period I heard it.
118. It is stated here that the Duke of Gordon was duly initiated into the Orange and Purple orders?—I believe he was; I believe there had been some partial change in the pass-words, which were communicated to the Duke of Gordon; but I have no distinct recollection of what took place.
119. The Marquis of Chandos appears to have been present?—No; it does not state that the persons named in the part pointed out were present, but that they were to constitute the grand officers of the institution.
120. Among the rest there is the Marquis of Chandos as grand secretary?— Yes.
121. You were acting as his deputy?—Yes; the grand officers seldom act ; the deputies act.
122. Was he the first grand secretary appointed?-No.
123. Who was the first? The first, I believe, was the late Mr. Woodburn of Manchester; I took the office of deputy when we got a superior; I was first deputy.
124. Who was the first grand secretary in London ?-Lord Lowther; he took the office nominally; he never did any duty.
125. How long did he continue in office as grand secretary?—I cannot tell; some short time before the Marquis of Chandos accepted the office; he was Lord Lowther's immediate successor.
126. Do you recollect when that took place?—No.
127. Has the Marquis of Chandos ever attended any meetings or signed any papers-He has signed documents; his name is to this blank form of warrant.
128. Are the Committee to understand that, during the time the Marquis of Chandos held that office he signed the ordinary documents requiring the signature of the grand secretary?—Yes.
129. The first resolution is, "That the following constitute the committee of the grand lodge, with power to add to their numbers?"-The greater part of that which the Committee are now referring to is what I before termed the common routine, which I had arranged myself, and which was taken for granted to be
130. The next resolution is, That the following brothers be deputy grand masters;" so that at this meeting a committee of the grand lodge was appointed by the first resolution, and by the second certain individuals were selected to be deputy grand masters?—Yes; those sort of matters were seldom canvassed. 131. They were carried?-Yes.
132. How were those persons appointed deputy grand masters ?--There is a rule directing that the members composing the different warrants form one meeting with the masters and officers, which some improperly call a district meeting.
133. You yourself and Colonel Fairman were appointed deputy grand masters for London ?—Yes.
134. So that at this period you were deputy grand secretary, and with that office you combined another, you were deputy grand master for the metropolis? -Yes.
135. The third resolution is to the following effect, "That the issue of the following warrants be allowed;" that resolution was carried?-The resolution was made in that general way; there were certain warrants to be issued, and I prepared them according to the documents which came into my hands; they were not always read over in grand lodge, but the question was asked me generally by His Royal Highness, as I sat near him, "Is this correct? have you seen that these things are correct?" They were not examined at the time;