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that indulgence for a minute to mark one | instance out of very many where this œconomy is not to be found. [He then entered into the abuses and misapplications that had prevailed in the naval economy since 1770. He shewed, that though in the course of five years, upwards of two millions sterling had been granted by parliament for the repairs of the navy, over and above the sums annually for wear and tear, yet the navy debt had increased in the same five years, upwards of 500,000l. He proved that the Africa, a ship of 70 guns, had been sold for 900l. though she was in better order than two-thirds of the fleet, and could have been made as good as new for 3,000l. while there had been demanded of parliament, for the use of the Dragon man of war only, within four years, though she had never been at sea in the time, 32,9731. being extra work over and above what she had cost under the articles of wear and tear, and ordinary; and is now laid up in Fareham Creek unfit for service without further repair. He likewise proved, that the noble lord at the head of the board was the cause of the late insurrection of the shipwrights, as he had encouraged them to petition parliament for an increase of wages, in opposition to the application of the captains of the navy for an increase of their halfpay he himself having told their committee that the shipwrights were a set of more useful men to this nation, and much more entitled to the favour of government. He said that the task-work was the most destructive manner of building and repairing possible, that it must inevitably increase the naval expence, and ruin the fleet of this kingdom.]

Now, Sir, to return to the question immediately before us: my objection arises, as it did last year, from a persuasion of the insufficiency of the number of seamen applied for to man the ships already in commission, and those fitting for foreign service: if 6,665 marines are to be included, 1,200 of which the hon. member allows to make a part of your standing army, and are now serving under the general of your troops in America, how then can the ships in this country be fitted for war, if occasion should require it, without the assistance of these marines, who, with the few volunteers we have, can alone be trusted to man the boats, get the stores on board, guard the ships, and the men we receive from the impress traders. The hon. member has told us, that admiral

Shuldam's command is to consist of 78 sail of men of war. In that case it is trifling with parliament to come with such a demand as this, when I am sure it is impossible, by any calculation, to prove them sufficient to man such a fleet as is now in commission, and fitting for foreign service; and if you except out of 28,000 seamen the 1,200 marines under the command of our general at Boston, sea officers, petty officers, and servants, the number of foremast men will not exceed 14,000; therefore these must be ordinary grants; you may judge of the extraordinaries by what you have heard respecting the Dragon, and of which there are many more instances equally alarming.

Sir, though I am totally against a great increase of revenue for the destructive purposes it seems at present intended, it was my best hope that a large share of it would be appropriated towards the support of what is generally acknowledged to be the great strength of this nation; that when the American ports were shut up, and we had lost that trade, we might have secured the seamen out of employ, by fitting out a formidable fleet; not because I think it will prove useful on the coast of America, but as the best security against a foreign power. Sir, talking of America, a right hon. member said, there had been a fault in the navy somewhere. Will the noble lord declare that admiral Graves has ever received positive orders that he did not execute; or have they been, as I have reason to believe them, from the operations of the fleet, so artfully discretional, that if your ships should be wrecked upon that frozen coast, or any misfortune attend them, the blame may be laid on the ad miral, and his reputation as an officer be sacrificed to shelter the wicked proceedings of these ministers.-Sir, an hon. member told us, we need not be dispirited with our misfortunes in America, for that our fleets were unsuccessful at the beginning of the late war, but afterwards proved victorious. Sir, this is a position similar to that of the naval economy, which I think can hardly be marked in above one instance, I mean the loss of Minorca. Where else did ill-success await our naval arms? Was it in Europe, Asia, South or North America, where from the commencement to the conclusion of the war we were making captures? How then, Sir, was the ill-success that attended this country in any foreign war, to be compared to the sea of trouble we are now

otherwise, if practicable, to harass them with your fleets, by interrupting their trade, till at length they might perhaps be brought to sue for protection. The Resolution was agreed to.

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Lord North said, the ships built at the end of the war, were of green wood, which not being so durable as the seasoned wood, were very bad, had lately proved very rotten, and that this circumstance had been the cause of the great expence.

Sir J. G. Griffin did not get up to oppose the number of seamen, because he thought if any operations were to be continued against the Americans, they ought to be confined to that service only. He then declared that he had hitherto supported government on principles, without regard to men; thinking it is his duty as an honest man so to do, as long as the true interest of the country appeared to be consulted, and the public affairs conducted to the credit or honour of the nation; he denied that to be the case at presént, and called on any of the minister's best friends to contradict him; adding, he should ill deserve to sit there any longer, if he continued to afford his support to men, the effects of whose pernicious measures had reduced us to so shameful a situation. He professed himself an advocate for the supreme legislative authority of this country over its colonies; disclaimed however on the one hand vindicating the rash and indiscreet measure of having taxed the Americans, as he did on the other, their mode of resistance. The noble lord (North) had in the last session given it as his firm opinion, that the forces then voted, and the other measures the House had adopted, would put an end to all our unhappy disputes with America, even without a drop of bloodshed; yet notwithstanding we all felt so seriously the grievous effects of these ill-advised measures, the noble lord, with fatal experience against him, was determined to seek our total ruin, by persevering in the same wild and extravagant system; instead of which, he added, a tender of conciliation on terms suited to the true spirit of the British constitution ought to be preferred and held out to the Americans, which, if not successful, we ought to relinquish all connections with them: or

Debate in the Commons on the Bill for Embodying the Militia.] Nov. 2. On the order of the day for the second reading of the Bill for embodying the militia,

Mr. Hartley said; Sir, I shall beg leave upon the present occasion to take a scope wide of the immediate business, and offer an observation or two upon the necessity of having some measure of a conciliatory nature to attend those coercive ones which are brought forwards against America with so much haste. I would propose that there should be some test held out, by which the colonies may prove their submission to the legislative power of this country. I think the best would be the recognition of an act of parliament, to be registered in the assembly of such colony willing to submit. And I think the best should be one which exercises a controlling power over the colony; for instance, suppose it was to enact that all the slaves in America should have the trial by jury. The recognition of this and the submission to its operation would yield the requisite proof of duty. When this actual recognition of an act of parliament shall have replaced the legislative authority of this country, without question or diminution, as it was before the commencement of these troubles; then, as an act of merited justice to such colonies as shall have given this proof of their return to their allegiance, let their grievances be redressed; let the operation of all the acts complained of cease, ipso facto, in each colony respectively where the required recognition shall have been complied with. This proposition seems to me to be equitable in itself; I hope it will be thought by all parties to be definite, satisfactory, and practicable.

Mr. Charles Turner. I am against the present Bill upon every account, as I am against militias in general. The proper men to recruit and supply your troops are the scum and outcast of cities and manufactures; fellows who voluntarily submit to be slaves by an apprenticeship of seven years are the proper persons to be military ones. But to take the honest, sober, industrious fellow from the plough, is doing an essential mischief to the community, and laying a double tax. The mili

tia is likewise more expensive than the re-minister, to be called out under pretences gulars, and therefore the more improper at present.

Viscount Mountstuart. I do not rise to oppose the Bill, because I am clear that the force of a militia is the true constitutional force to be relied on by this or any kingdom; but, Sir, I wish to see no longer a partial militia; I wish to see an end of a line of distinction drawn between countries, which in nature and in land are the same: I wish to see a militia in North Britain. What reason can be assigned against it? The stain of rebellion is wiped out; it is done away for ever, by the loyalty of the people, and the uncommon exertions they made for the crown in the last war. I do not mean now to bring this matter under consideration, but give notice that I shall take an early open day to propose it.

of distant or imaginary danger. They knew the nature of the very cause in which they were to draw their swords; but what will be their situation if this Bill passes? It will be in the power of the minister to embody the militia, and put them under the Mutiny Act, if a rebellion is only apprehended in Bengal, in St. He lena, in the most distant and insignificant dependency of the crown. To draw their swords in defence of their king and country, is what they entered expressly and cheerfully to do; but to be made soldiers in spite of themselves, to serve not their country in great and fearful exigences, but to second the apprehensions or evil de signs of a minister, is being in a situation so totally different, that no arguments can convince me they will endure it. I am a friend to the old militia, because it can only be drawn out in cases prescribed by the constitution; but I am an enemy to this new scheme, because it in fact annihilates that meritorious militia, and gives you a monster in its stead.

Mr. Dunning condemned the Bill. Instead of the ostensible motives held out by it, the militia may be employed in the most alarming and unconstitutional manner. It throws a power into the hands of the king, hitherto unknown to the constitu A noble lord has touched upon another tion. He took a retrospective view of militia-a militia to be composed of a set measures in general; and introduced some of people of a complexion which has not, it strictures on addresses; particularly that seems, been thought by the legislature to from the first battalion of the militia of recommend them to possess it: a northern the county of Devon. My hon. friend militia! From the manner in which the (Mr. Acland) who helped to procure that intimation is given I take it for granted Address, and presented it, he supposed, the plan is determined, and that we may consulted the noble lord (North) upon it; consider it as one of the measures which and he had good ground to believe the are at present so rapidly combined. And noble lord corrected it. The Address it leads me naturally to the great question speaks its origin fully; it makes a tender of of America, to shew how these measures their services with their swords drawn, not are united in order to be effectual; and I to use them against the common enemy, shall the readier undertake it, as next any of the branches of the House of Bour-week I shall be otherwise employed. bon, not even against the Americans, for they could not act against either out of the kingdom, but against his Majesty's internal enemies, that is, such who in this House, or elsewhere, dare to hold a contrary opinion with the framer and author of it. The tendency of the Bill is exceedingly different from the old militia law, and therefore demands an explanation, that the House may know how different the situation of the gentlemen now in the militia will be, from what it is at present. They and the men entered into that engagement with their country, under the express circumstances that they were never to be called out but in time of invasion or rebellion in England, or imminent danger of one or the other. This condition secured them from being at the beckon of a

It is curious to observe what are the auxiliaries which the present administra tion call to the assistance of the British constitution; Catholics from Canada, if they can be induced to act; Irish Papists; a new militia in England, composed of a description of men exceedingly different from those who composed the old one; a Scotch militia, of a description that I will not name; Hanoverian mercenaries to garrison the two great fortresses of the Mediterranean; and, to crown the whole, 20,000 Russians, to protect the legislative authority of this country. It has been de clared in another House, that the Rus sians are not to be sent to America, therefore they are, we may presume, to be brought here. He wished to know what object we were now contending for with

to have mentioned in another place. I have a great opinion of that gentleman's abilities; and it is plain he has a very good opinion of me, from the way he treats me. Because the Irish secretary says I am a rash and inconsiderate individual, there fore administration says I am so, for such and such sentiments. As to the right of taxing Ireland, I assert it upon the solid authority of an act of parliament; if this parliament has a right to deprive the House of Lords of Ireland of their judicial right, in the dernier resort, it has a right to do every thing else. But the learned gentleman has taken a wider field; he has given us a rueful catalogue of troops, which are to execute the measures, and among the rest 20,000 Russians. This is the first time that I ever heard a syllable of Russians coming here. It is true, I am not of the cabinet; I never was there in my life: but from the connections I have, and from all my information, I know of no such design. But whenever a war has been opened, which demands foreign auxiliaries, various are those that have been hired. The last war saw Wolfenbuttlers, Hessians, Hanoverians, and I know not what, in our service; and there was a Britannic legion, which consisted of all the thieves in Eu rope: the learned member, if disposed to ridicule, might call them and the Marattas of the East, allies of the king of England. The learned member enters very logically into the distinctions of rebellion, and from attending minutely to them, all I can learn is, that there are two sorts of rebellion; one which the gentleman likes very well, and one which he likes not all. He detests the rebellion of 1745, but likes the present passing well. Now, for my part, although I think there is but one kind of rebellion, I cannot carry my sentiments so far back as the hon. gentleman; for, whenever the Americans shall return to their duty, and behave as loyally as the people of Manchester, I shall not, by any means, consider them as deserving my hatred; but shall readily give up the point of taxation for honourable terms of accommoda

America. It was not for taxes, as we might easily perceive, by general Burgoyne's letter to general Lee; for a gentleman of his good sense, and who held so high a post under governmefit, would not venture to assert so much without some authority. It could not be said that we were contending for the general unlimited power of parliament over every part of the empire; for the secretary of a neighbouring kingdom had contradicted that idea, by asserting "that expressions of that kind which had been made in that House by a gentleman high in an office, were no more than the rash inconsiderate opinion of an hasty individual." He wished to be fairly understood with regard to his ideas of rebellion: he never had considered it as a genus which might be divided into several distinct species; yet he was apt to imagine, that there might be one sort of rebellion less deserving our hatred than another; that there might be a provoked and an unprovoked rebellion, of which each merited different degrees of censure. He then proceeded to ridicule the motley complexion of our intended forces, which were to consist of Hanoverians, Russians, savage Canadians, and Irish Roman Catholics. He said, he had heard, that a single regiment could march from one end of North America to the other; but he desired to know, if it was not more probable that 20,000 Russians could march from John o'Grott's house to the Land'sEnd. On the whole, he declared that he was against this, as well as most of the other measures of government; that he stood alone, unconnected with any party; that he despised any man, who at such a critical juncture, could be swayed by any personal motive whatever; that, for his part, he spoke ex animo, and he hoped the House would give him credit for his assertion. He concluded by observing, that although he might not, perhaps, be able to give that close attendance to the business of the House which he could wish, yet he would uniformly oppose the ministry in every step they should take to enforce measures which he heartily condemned.

Sir George Yonge informed the House of the manner in which the Devonshire address was obtained, without the knowledge or concurrence of the gentlemen of property in the county.

Mr. Rigby. I should not have risen to the present question, had not the learned gentleman brought me into a conspicuous light, from what an Irish secretary is said [VOL. XVIII.]

tion with them.

Colonel Barré observed, that he had lately heard many gentlemen in administration speak very moderately of American affairs, and he exhorted them to throw some kind of a conciliatory proposition together, as a step towards an accommodation. He requested the friends of ministry not to be so very fond of war, [31]

as to overlook an easy and honourable peace, which lay so immediately in their way, that they could not but see it, if they would but give themselves the trouble to look for it; and concluded by reminding the House, that Philip lost the now United Provinces by being too tenacious of one single post.

tions of the same nature had been entered into previous to the Revolution. Now, Sir, we unfortunate country gentlemen, who are not blessed with those abilities which teach us to understand black when we read white, did conclude, that if these letters of association so recommended, implied any thing, they implied the necessity of another revolution. Under such circumstances, Sir, in such times, were we not justified? Did we not act the part of good citizens and good subjects, publicly to declare to the whole world our just abhorrence of every attempt to alienate the minds of his Majesty's subjects, and to express our readiness, when properly called on, to exert our utmost endeavours to suppress any internal enemies of the King and this constitution; for, Sir, such inflammatory papers are attempts to alienate the minds of his Majesty's subjects, and those men by whom such papers and such letters were circulated, are enemies to the King and this constitution. I can assure this House, that nineteen out of twenty of the principal resident representatives of the property of the county signed that address. It is perpetually asked, how

Mr. Acland. As I do not intend that some aspersions the learned gentleman has thrown out on me shall go unnoticed, I rise now to give the learned gentleman an opportunity of replying if he chuses it. The learned gentleman began by calling me his hon. friend, and immediately proceeded to give me the most unequivocal proofs of his friendship, by throwing out assertions as detrimental to an independent character, as they were unfounded in fact. The learned gentleman has said, that the address of the first regiment of Devonshire militia, which I had the honour of presenting, was corrected by the noble lord. If I was to give way to the just dictates of my resentment, no expression the English language contained, would be strong enough to mark in its true colours such an unwarranted assertion; but I will content my-country gentlemen can again trust an adself with declaring to this House, this full gallery, and the whole world, that it is untrue. The address, which has had the misfortune of drawing down the weight of that gentleman's resentment upon it, and which I, it seems, in an unfortunate hour, presented to his Majesty, if its containing strong sentiments of loyalty to the King, and attachment to the constitution, be a crime, is, I confess, most criminal. But, Sir, sorry am I to find, that expressions of loyalty to the King and attachment to the constitution, should appear so criminal to that learned gentleman. This address, at which the gentleman is so much displeased, expresses, Sir, a just abhorrence of every attempt to alienate the minds of his Ma-force. jesty's subjects, and a readiness, when properly called on, to endeavour to suppress any internal enemies of the King and constitution. About the time that this and many other western addresses originated in the country, many inflammatory papers, breathing a spirit adverse to all order and tranquillity, had been with an assiduity hi-I have not been deceived by administra therto unknown, dispersed through the west, amongst others, letters inviting to associate had been sent to many of the principal magistrates and first gentlemen of property; these associations were recommended on the principle that associa

ministration that has so often deceived them? For one, Sir, I answer, that they never have deceived me; but if I had been deceived, I had been deceived under the sanction of the gravest and most respectable authorities of this House, under the sanction of that learned gentleman himself, who during the last session, when administration applied to parliament to strengthen the hands of government, com. pared the disturbances then existing in the province of the Massachuset's Bay to the riots that had often happened at different times in different parts of England, which had been suppressed with a very trifling, if not without any assistance of a military

Would not therefore that gentle. man and his friends have treated it as the wildest of all wild doctrines, if administration had proposed to parliament to send out a force adequate to the conquest of a whole continent,-to do what? Why to suppress a few insignificant riots in the Massachuset's province. I again repeat,

tion, for I did not think the force competent; but because a competent force was not sent out last year, I do not think it good sense or good argument to oppose the sending out a competent one this year; nor should I think, if at this time I

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