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France and Prussia — might have been THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLAND sound if this country had been in the thought there must be some mistake. position of a Continental Power, with LORD NORTHBROOK: The noble frontiers conterminous with those of Duke expresses some apprehension that I other Powers. But when his argument have fallen into a mistake; but I will comes to be applied to this island of give the particulars. There are 15 officers ours, providentially separated and pro- engaged in the inspection of the Reserve tected by a great natural defence from forces, at a cost of £8,425 per annum. any attack from abroad — and not only In the Militia there are 290 officers protected by a great natural defence, and 4,776 non-commissioned officers, but supported by a force in which now, costing in pay, allowances, and clothing as at all other times, we hold ourselves £287,250 per annum. In the Yeomanry to be superior to all other nations in the there are 35 officers and 328 non-comworld—the reasoning and the compa- missioned officers, and their cost is rison fail—and the position which we £19,191; and in the Volunteer force occupy is one which renders it unneces- there are 291 officers and 1,163 nonsary for us to arm the whole population commissioned officers, the annual cost of the country, as other nations have, un being £154,950. Then the cost of the fortunately, been almost obliged to arm Staff of the Pensioners is about £21,200 their whole population, in consequence per annum, so that the Staff of the Reserve of the mutual armaments of their neigh- forces alone costs, as I have stated, bours. My Lords, to resume - After £491,016 per annum. But that is not settling and laying down the main prin- all; for, independent of this Staff we have ciples of our defensive force, my right recruiting districts, and the pay, allowhon. Friend appointed a sub-Commit- ances, and clothing of those connected tee, which is now considering what with them amounts to £26,934 per anmilitary divisions should be made in num. Independently of that again, we this country, and what Staff organiza- have the Staff of the depôt battalions, tion should be established in those divi- who are, to a great extent, employed sions for the sake of bringing all the in similar duties, and their cost for forces of the country together. Now, pay, allowances, and clothing amounts my Lords, that organization appears to to £36,030. Therefore, my Lords, if be perfectly indispensable in order that you add to the cost of the Staff of the the forces of the country should be put Reserve forces that of the Recruiting upon a proper footing. At the same Staff and of the Staff of the depôt battime your Lordships will be glad to hear talions, which might be diminished by a that it is far from improbable that very different organization, the total cost per great improvements in the organization annum is no less than £553,980. I am of the Reserve forces may be made, and not, my Lords, at this time going to that there is also room for effecting no propose any plan by which this Staff little economy when that improved or- may be consolidated and economy enganization is carried out. The noble forced; all that I say

is that, with Earl on the cross-Benches (Earl Grey), such figures before us, it certainly who has often addressed your Lordships appears that, while greater efficiency with great weight upon questions re- might be secured, a considerable degree lating to Army organization and the of economy may also be effected. I Reserve forces, has called attention will now say a few words with respect to several times to the expense occasioned the observations which my noble Friend by maintaining, in connection with the has made in regard to the Volunteers. Reserve forces, a permanent Staff for My Lords, I think there is no officer of the whole year, who necessarily are em- Volunteers who would assume, as my ployed but for a very short time. Now, noble Friend appears to think they do, the cost of the permanent Staff of the Re- that the Volunteers ought to be regarded serve forces, which I have on this paper, , as part of the standing Army: From I will venture to read. There are no all that I have seen and heard among fewer than 717 officers and 6,391 non- Volunteer officers and from my own commissioned officers, and the cost of feeling as a Volunteer officer of humble pay and allowances for the Staff is, in- position, I do not think that the Voluncluding clothing, no less than £491,000 teers ever supposed that they were part

, per annum.

of the standing Army of this country,

neces

We are quite content with the position increase of the grant. I need hardly which my noble Friend has given us of remind your Lordships that the money being valuable auxiliaries in time of in- paid to the Volunteer force in one year vasion. The consideration of the posi- is for services rendered in the year

betion of the Volunteers was forced upon fore; and, therefore, that, before the Esmy right hon. Friend shortly after he timates for next year are laid before Parassumed the Seals of Secretary of State. liament, there will be ample time to maIt will be in the recollection of some, at ture any measures which may be least, of your Lordships that Sir John sary for the improvement of the force. Pakington, when Secretary of State, re- It appears to the Secretary of State that ceived a deputation of Volunteer officers, it might be exceedingly desirable, if any and communicated to them the decision increase is given to the Volunteers, to of the late Government against an in- devote it more to enabling them to unite crease of the capitation rate to Volunteers. with the Militia and the Line, in order My right hon. Friend shortly after he to train them practically to their duties, came to the War Office received a depu- in smaller bodies than those which have tation of the Volunteer officers, by whom been collected together at the great rethe same request was made, and to whom views. I have already said, my Lords, the same reply was given. My right that I cannot accept the position which hon. Friend said that the view he took my noble Friend (Lord Monck) has of the question was that it would not be taken in the course of his able speech in right to give broadcast an increase of instituting comparisons between the posithe capitation rate to the Volunteers; tion of this country, and such countries but if an increase was to be given out as France, Prussia, Austria, or Russia of the public taxes, such increase must stand with respect to defence. I must be coupled with a comprehensive review refer, however, for a few moments, to of the whole position of the force; that the comparison which my noble Friend it would be necessary in the first place made as regards the cost per man of that no

more separate corps should the Army and Volunteers of France exist than could be usefully established and Prussia, as compared with that of in any particular locality; that officers | the Army and Volunteers of this counand non - commissioned officers should try. When I was in the other House be appointed, not from social or other of Parliament, when the Estimates similar considerations, but because they were being discussed, I have constantly were able to command men with effi- heard comparisons made between the ciency; and, lastly, that some better cost of the French and English Armies ; test of efficiency should be afforded than but I never found any possible point the number of drills which were required, of agreement in which two people who as the force was now constituted, to took opposite views could meet. It entitle a Volunteer to the capitation is utterly impossible, unless you have grant; and that more would be neces- every particular detail, and work the sary than the small increase which was calculation out from top to bottom, proposed by the Volunteer deputation to institute any sound comparison beas a kind of ultimatum. Now, this tween the Estimates of the two countries. question of the Volunteers is inti- We are told that one English soldier mately connected with that of the or- costs £100 per annum; but in that £100 ganization of the whole of the Reserve is included pensions of all kinds, the cost forces; and, therefore, my right hon. of fortifications, and of military experiFriend proposes after the Committee ments of all sorts, and many other matwhich is now considering the general ters which may or may not be included organization of the Reserve forces has in calculations based upon the French proceeded somewhat further towards the Budget, but which require to be carecompletion of that part of its work, and fully considered before such a compaat the time of the Wimbledon meeting, rison can be accepted as fair. The when many of the Volunteer officers will fact is, we see our own defects, and our come to London—to invite some of them own expenditure is brought especially to assist him in taking a comprehensive home to us; but when we come to disview of the position of the Volunteer cuss the expenditure of other nations force, which appears absolutely essential there may be things which we do not before Parliament is asked to vote an know, but which they do; and therefore

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I altogether take exception to the com- | if not insuperable difficulties. His system parison which my noble Friend has in- contains a fault common to many of the stituted. But I will take him to one systems which have been designed of late point which will show that he has been with a view to reform our Army organiħardly fair to this country in his com- zation. One Paper, read by Mr. Cole, parison of the cost of the French and which gave rise to a very interesting disEnglish soldier. In making his com- cussion

at the Society of Arts, was based parison he calls the Garde Mobile sol- upon the proposal to leave India entirely diers, but excludes the English Volun- | out of the question; and some other teers.

schemes have been designed in forgetfulLORD MONCK: I beg my_noble ness of the fact that we have to provide an Friend's pardon. I included the Volun- Army for India. I trust, by the way,

that teers, the Militia, and every other force. whatever scheme may be adopted for the

LORD NORTHBROOK : If my noble organization of the English Army, we Friend included them I am utterly at a shall not revert to the system of having loss to know how to make his calcula- a local European Army in India. When tions tally with the Army Estimates; the local Army existed, I was strongly because if all are included we should against it, and now that it has been have 436,000 men—namely, 400,000 at abolished, I deprecate any change which home and 36,000 in the colonies, who would restore it. I believe it to be an also fall on the Army Estimates. But if unsound system for the maintenance of you divide the Army Estimates, which, the British supremacy in the East. My I believe, are £10,834,000, for the Effect- noble Friend has more than once referive Services, by that number it does not red to the views recently expressed by produce anything like the sum men- Sir John Burgoyne. But the name of Sir tioned by my noble Friend. The cal- John Burgoyne brings me back to the culation produces something like £25, time when a celebrated letter was written instead of the sum the noble Lord by him, at a period when there was some mentioned. I cannot profess to go in- anxiety, as there is at present, respectto the details of the calculations which ing our home defence. It will be some he has made with respect to foreign satisfaction to your Lordships to compare Armies; but if they are made at all the state of those defences then with in the same way as his calculations their condition at present. In 1851, the respecting our Army, they may not be regular forces numbered some 67,500; so unfavourable to our administration of Militia there was only a small peras at first sight they appear. Of course, manent Staff of 700 men, and there were my Lords, it is self-evident that if you 15,500 Pensioners, &c. We had altohave conscription, you can have a cheaper gether 84,000 of those forces, besides Army than you can get on the voluntary a Yeomanry force of 14,600 men, but system. I was sorry to hear my noble no Volunteers. In 1869, we have 92,000 Friend shadow forth a system similar to Regular Army, 83,000 Militia, actually the Prussian. Conscription always bears trained, independent of those who will most hardly on the working classes. As be called out for training this year, and long, therefore, as we can get soldiers 24,000 Pensioners, &c.; giving a total of by the voluntary system, we should be 200,000 as against 84,000 in 1851.

If doing a foolish and unjust thing to throw you take the Infantry of the Line, you the burden of our military defence on will find that we had only 43 battalions our poorer fellow-countrymen. If you

in 1851 at home; now we have 61: have a voluntary system the average rate in 1851, we had only 5,000_Artillery; of pay must be equal to the pay of artizans this year we have 18,000: in Volunteers and labourers, and the Army cannot con

we had only the Yeomanry against sequently be cheap. Besides this, every- 170,000 "efficient" Volunteers. Therefore thing in this country is dearer than on if we stood alone on the comparison of the Continent. I confess I was unable the Regular and Reserve forces in 1851 to follow my noble Friend completely; and at the present time, we have the satisbut, as far as I understand it, I must faction of knowing that we are in a far say that any system such as he proposes, superior position to that in which we then which would establish a different system were. But, in 1851, as was pointed out of enlistment for the service at home by Sir John Burgoyne, we had no system and service abroad, would involve great, of fortifications. At this time, we have

perhaps the most admirable system Monck), to take this opportunity of going in the world rapidly advancing to com- into the details of a question of such impletion. We have also a means of de- portance and breadth, as there will, no fence which did not exist in 1851 doubt, be other opportunities of discussI refer to the floating mines or tor- ing it. It will, however, be right for me pedoes. This species of defence has to say a few words and to warn your attracted great attention, and there is Lordships and the country that this no doubt that torpedoes will form a grave question is one that ought not to powerful auxiliary for the defence of be disposed of hastily, but which ought harbours in the future. Look how to be decided after the most serious conthe system developed during the pro- sideration, after the fullest investigation, gress of the American War.

In 1862, and after you have exhausted all the inthere was only one vessel destroyed by formation it is possible to obtain. From them; in 1863, there were two; in 1864, the observations made by my noble

h ten; and in 1865, twelve. Twenty-five Friend who introduced this question, I Federal vessels altogether were destroyed, thought he was going to conclude with and nine injured by torpedoes during a proposal for the introduction of conthat war. My Lords, the introduction scription into this country—for all his of steam, so far from being a weakness, arguments and views were in the direc

, has been a great addition of strength to tion of conscription; but I do not bethis country; improvements in artillery lieve that either your Lordships or the have been a strength to us; and tor- country are at all prepared for such a pedoes will give additional strength to proposition, and I am certainly the last the defence. The policy of the Secretary man who, from a military point of view, of State and the Government is to con- would urge the resort to conscription in centrate the forces in this country; as this country. At the same time I admit far as possible to establish such a sys- that conscription is, of all measures, that tem of Reserve as to enable the batta- which makes military organization most lions of Infantry to be raised at once in simple and easy. I agree very much case of necessity to war strength; and, with what fell from the noble Lord the at the same time, to organize such Under Secretary with respect to the una system of military administration intelligible character of the figures of throughout the country as will unite, the noble Lord who introduced the quesas far as possible under one command, tion. I did not understand the noble for purposes of organization and control, Lord's figures; but, supposing they are all the different forces which now have correct, I contend that the whole quesno connection one with the other, and tion is one of conscription, and that the enable them to be used with the greatest question of expenditure rests entirely advantage whenever necessity shall arise. upon conscription. If you have conscripI feel sure that my noble Friend will give tion, you can force a man to serve you for credit to the Government for having nothing. What is the question with us? taken

ир this question, not in a perfunc- It is entirely one of the labour market. tory spirit, but with the determination You must go into the labour market to go to the bottom of every portion of and make it worth a man's while to our military system, and not to be serve you as a soldier in preference to satisfied until those defects which now following any trade or profession. This exist in certain portions of that system is a matter of pounds, shillings, and are remedied, and that such an

organ- pence; and men cannot be got without ization is adopted as will enable us to expense. A man will not come into the recruit our Army with promptitude when Army merely for the pleasure of serving it is desired, and to have all the de- you ; he comes for the advantage it is fensive forces of this country in the to him. The greater the advantage in most efficient state if, unfortunately, we money and money's worth, the more should be called upon to demand their easily will you get recruits. This is a services.

question of finance and of comparative THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGE : My expenditure, and on every one of these Lords, it is not my intention, after the points it is an absurdity to compare our able speeches we have heard from the Army with any other Army which is a Under Secretary for War and my noble conscript Army. The only Army you can Friend who introduced the subject (Lord compare ours with is one formed like the

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American Army, only a small portion which that desirable end can be attained, of which is a standing Army. We must I am sure that not only Her Majesty's be prepared, under any circumstances, Government, but all military authorifor a considerable outlay, and we must ties, will see with great satisfaction any not compare our outlay in these respects such proposal judiciously carried out to with the outlay upon the Armies of the fullest extent. As to Reserve forces, France, Russia, or Prussia. Ours is not to which reference has been made, I a conscript Army, and that is really at quite agree that if you could get Reserve the bottom of the whole question in that forces that are not connected with the respect ; and the same as regards en- Militia, or any other body, it would be a listment. If my noble Friend can as- great advantage; but the question is, sure me that we can get men to serve how to get them ? Can you get them ? without a pension, I shall be glad to My impression is you cannot. If we can hear it; but, so far as my convictions go get them, by all means let us do so; let at present, they are very strong in the us try a system of raising the Reserve direction that the pension is a great in- forces without its having anything to ducement to men to enter the Service. I do with the Militia, and let us also conNo arrangement you may make is of any tinue to try the scheme of a Militia Reuse if it will not produce the men; if serve introduced by General Peel. I you can produce the men, that is what is believe if that measure were systematirequired; but if you cannot produce the cally carried out it would work well, men, the ground is cut away from under that there would be no difficulty in getyour feet. Recollect this is a voluntary ting the Reserve men from the Militia, service, and if you adopt a system which and in filling up the Militia regiments will not bring the men, you are check- which supply men for the Reserve, and mated. Therefore, whatever we do, we that the working of the measure need inmust obtain the men, and any change in volve no disorganization of the Militia troduced must be introduced in such a force. I entreat your Lordships to reflect, manner that we shall be sure of the re- and not to be hurried into making any sult before the change is made. I am organic change in the recruitment of the under the impression that there may be Army—an Army which I think all your an attempt made to introduce enlistment Lordships will admit has, under all cirfor short periods; but I do hope, at all cumstances and on all occasions, proved events, that there is no intention of giv- itself worthy of the country, and which

the present system of enlistment has done its duty in a manner which before you are sure of the result of any ought at least to be borne in mind when new experiment. I would say let short you propose to make a grave and serious enlistment be tried pari passú with the change in its organization. present system, and if you adopt that EARL DE LA WARR said, it would course you will lose no men. Another be early enough to express an opinion important point is that of enlistment for on the various schemes which had been India and for colonial garrisons. I can- propounded when any of them had taken not conceive of any system of enlistment the shape of a Bill. It was satisfactory answering which makes a difference be- to observe that the Government was at tween enlistment for foreign and enlist- last entering boldly and earnestly on the ment for home service. Such distinc- path of military reform, and that it was tions lead to endless confusion and in- prepared to give more attention to quesconvenience, and involve injustice even tions of military organization than its to the men themselves. Following up predecessors were supposed to have done. what has been said by the noble Lord He did not agree with the proposal to the Under Secretary, I can only assure curtail the period of enlistment in the the noble Lord (Lord Monck) that Her regular service, and he believed that to Majesty's Government are perfectly alive dispense with the lengthened service to the necessity of having this subject which those who now entered the Army most exhaustively inquired into, and gave freely and voluntarily, would dethat every endeavour is being made prive the Army of strength, power, and to see how the Reserve forces can be stability, which it would be impossible brought into relation with the regu- to replace. If our battalions were comlar Army. If any arrangement can be posed of men of two years' instead of made—and I have no doubt it can—by seven or eight years' service, we should

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