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were named, corresponding with two many cases, if not hundreds, of cases, , classes of glebe houses. In the case of they afforded both to the eye and to the the first class of glebe houses there was mind of the public a contrast between the no building charge, and, with respect position of the clergyman of the small to that class, the clause stipulated that minority, who was comfortably-and, in their sites should be sold to the repre- manyinstances handsomely-lodged, and sentative body of the Church at the that of the position of the clergyman of the moderate valuation of twelve years' pur large majority, who, in very many inchase. In his opening statement, how- stances, was wholly without an official ever, he had mentioned ten years' pur- residence—if he possessed one he owed chase as the amount fixed upon by the it entirely to private sources—and who Government; and, consequently, he had was, unfortunately, in many cases neither give notice of an Amendment to reduce handsomely nor comfortably lodged. In the terms of purchase to that amount. dealing with that matter they had not, The question was not a large one as far on the one hand, wished to put out of as money was concerned. The more view the low marketable value of those considerable question arose where there houses, nor allowed themselves to be was a building charge, and where there guided by the high figure of the cost inwas such charge he asked for the re-pay- curred in respect to them ; on the other ment of it. In the first instance, it would hand, they had felt that fidelity to their be necessary to liquidate the charge. engagements, with respect to the general He did not propose to take a larger sum principle of the Bill, did require that than a moderate valuation, and proposed they should, at all events in respect to that the maximum should be ten years, the land, which was always marketable, at the Poor Law valuation of the house fix some condition in the shape of a together with the site. Looking to what price for the possession of the glebe had been said the other night, he wished houses; and with respect to the large to submit to the Committee, with great building charges, which must be paid respect for the opinions of those who for by the general fund, they should thought differently from the Govern- endeavour, within the limits of equity, ment, that the plan he now laid before to obtain some compensation for the them was founded upon principles of payment. Under these circumstances, , equity as regarded the Church about to the Government—he hoped, without imbe disestablished. When he had spoken parting any exaggeration or passion last year of giving the parsonages to the into their view of the case—had deemed Church he had not been aware of the it to be their duty to adhere to the large sums which the State had been clause as it stood with the Amendments called upon to pay in respect of them, they proposed, and of course it would or of the sums which the State would be for the Committee to decide whether be called upon to pay before it could that view was right or wrong. obtain posseesion of them. The effect LORD JOHN MANNERS understood of the Bill would be to recoup to the the right hon. Gentleman to decline to State, not the whole, but a considerable accede to the appeal of the hon. Member portion of those sums. The Government for Rochester (Mr. P. Wykeham-Martin) had been able to trace about £1,200,000 to hand over the glebe houses without as having been expended for these pur- exacting any payment for them. Last poses. Undoubtedly, the value of the year the right hon. Gentleman had given glebe houses was greater to the Church the country to understand that he was than to any other body. The Poor Law prepared to hand over those houses valuation of them amounted to about without charge to the Church Body; but £18,000 or £19,000 per annum, and he now stated that he was not then probably their annual letting value aware of certain circumstances with rewould not exceed £24,000 or £25,000. gard to them which had since come to With regard to the proposition that the his knowledge, and which had led him, glebe houses should be made over with upon reflection, to recommend the Comout any payment whatever, it should mittee to adopt the proposal he now be remembered that they had been a made. So far, he could follow the meanvery notable sign and token in the pub- ing of the right hon. Gentleman; but, lic eye throughout Ireland of the position when he came to assign a reason for of the Established Church, and that in that recommendation, he must confess VOL. CXCV. (THIRD SERIES.]

30 [Committee-Clause 27.


Irish Church {COMMONS Bill-Committee. 1860 he could not follow his meaning. The glebe houses. But was it not true that right hon. Gentleman talked about the a sum of £37,000 or £38,000 had been necessity of giving back to the State voted by Parliament for the erection and the money which it had expended. But repairs of the College of Maynooth? If what money had the State expended, be- it was just to remit the payment of this yond the £150,000, to which the right latter sum, what became of the arguhon. Gentleman made reference for the ment against handing over those glebo first time the other night? The right houses founded on the Parliamentary hon. Gentleman talked about having Vote ? He ventured to say that the traced an expenditure of £1,200,000 by right hon. Gentleman had made out no the State upon these houses, and about case for his present proposition, which being anxious to get back a portion of was a signal departure from the princithat sum.

It appeared to him that the ple which he himself laid down last year £1,200,000 was not expended on behalf when introducing this question of the of the State, but by individual clergy- Irish Church. The answer of the right men and laymen interested in the Church hon. Gentleman to the significant appeal of Ireland. Did the right hon. Gentle- made to him on Monday night by the hon. man come forward and claim the whole Member for Rochester ought to be suffiof the sums which had been expended cient to show those simple-minded persons by these persons during the last two or who had pledged themselves to support three centuries on the glebe houses in the right hon. Gentleman that they had Ireland ? Such a claim was the most handed themselves over bound hand and extraordinary rhetorical artifice he had foot to the Government. They now found ever heard.

The right hon. Gentleman, that this was a measure without a single when asked to do by the glebe houses provision of a compensatory character. as he was prepared to do by Maynooth, MR. BAGWELL said, he did not had refused to do so on the singular know that, during the many years he ground that, in his opinion, fifteen years had sat in the House of Commons, he ago, Parliament had acted very unjustly had ever risen to speak under greater towards Maynooth in refusing to continue difficulty than that which he experienced the annual Vote for the repairs of the on this occasion. He believed that if College. But the right hon. Gentleman the Government had acceded to the sugwas the last man in the House who could gestion of his hon. Friend the Member impeach the wisdom of Parliament in for Rochester (Mr. P. Wykeham-Martin) refusing that grant, because he had been they would thereby have sent a message Chancellor of the Exchequer, and a of peace and conciliation to the 700,000 Member of the Government during the members of the Protestant Episcopal greater part of that period, without hav- Church in Ireland. Who had made that ing, on any single occasion, proposed to body of 700,000 Protestants ? The EngParliament-as it would have been his lish Government, at a time when it had duty, under such circumstances, to have not statesmanship enough to rule Iredone over and over again--a renewal of land as an Irish country, but tried to that grant. Then the right hon. Gen- force upon the Irish people English relitleman told them that if those glebe gion and English law. He was one of houses were handed over to the Protest- the 700,000 to whom he had alluded; ant Episcopal Body free of charge, as he but ever since he had been first able to himself last year proposed to hand them form an opinion on political matters he over, they would remain as a symbol of had been of opinion that the principle that Protestant ascendancy which it was of religious equalitywas essential for Irethe object of this Bill to put an end to. land. He believed that he had held that If that would be the effect of handing opinion before any man on the Treasury over these modest glebe houses, what Bench, except the right hon. Gentleman would be the effect of the gift of the the President of the Board of Trade. cathedrals and churches ? Again, the But was a Church going out on the right hon. Gentleman had said, -and world without anything in a position of this was the only argument—if argument religious equality? Was such a Church it could be called-in favour of the pro- in the position of Churches which had position of the Government--that, at been established for hundreds of years ? some remote period, a sum of £152,000 You might as well say to a young man had been voted by Parliament for those going out to Australia—“Go out and



flourish; you will enjoy full liberty, and was. He must say, however, that he be on an equality with every one in the could not, under


circumstances, colony.” Such a young man would soon agree to any proposition for blowing up find himself in a different position from the Irish churches and glebe houses. that of persons who had been established He thought that much better might be in the colony for fifty or sixty years. done with the glebe houses, and be He was sure he spoke the feeling of the done with the sanction of all classes in great majority of the 700,000 when Ireland ultimately, by the proposition he said that if they were compelled to contained in this Bill. The hon. Memgive up their churches and glebe houses ber for Rochester (Mr. P. Wykehamthey would themselves build handsomer Martin) and some other hon. Members churches and more commodious resi- the other night—he (Mr. Bright) was not dences for their clergy. But would not present in the House-quoted observathe Government say anything to concili- tions made by him, he was not sure ate these people ? This was a paltry whether in the House of Commons last matter. He did not care whether the Session, or in a speech to his constituents Government took the Bishops' palaces, at Birmingham. There was nothing that which were handsome residences, and he had said in regard of a gracious and with the demesnes would fetch a great generous treatment of the now Estabdeal of money ; but, as a rule, the glebe lished Church of Ireland that he was houses were miserable residences, single- anxious or willing to retract; but the bodied houses, standing on high hills, Committee must bear in mind that unless and without a bush to shade them. He they could convey to the minds of the did not believe any speculator_would whole of the people of Ireland that they buy them for the old materials. He was did what they pretended to do—that they sorry that the right hon. Gentleman at dealt with this question in a spirit of perthe head of the Government had not fect equality—they failed in the essential listened to the appeal made to him on object of the Bill. He believed that that side of the House, because the right nobody

- no member of the Roman hon. Gentleman must know how difficult Catholic Church-who had spoken or it was for hon. Members who came there written in public on this matter, had pledged to this great measure-pledged disputed the propriety of leaving the to the disestablishment and disendow- Protestant congregations the buildings ment of the Irish Church-pledged to in which they were accustomed to wormake all religions in Ireland equal be- ship. Nothing, in his opinion, would have fore the eye of the law—the right hon. been more harsh or unjust than to have Gentleman must know how difficult it disturbed those congregations in the was for such Members to give any vote possession of those buildings in which which might seem to present an obstacle they meet for public worship; but after to the passing of the Bill. As for him that it would, he thought, be seen that self, he would see every church and every the congregations had not the same glebe house in Ireland blown up rather right-indeed he doubted whether they than that this Bill should not pass, be- had any right—to contend that Parliacause he believed that the time for peace, ment ought to make them a present of happiness, and good-will in Ireland never the glebe houses. In his proposition, would arrive till this question was settled made, if he recollected rightly, not in that on the principle of complete religious House, but at Birmingham, he had, he equality. Of course, he knew that any believed, proposed to give the Church thing which he might say on the point the glebe houses and a certain limited now under discussion would be useless ; portion of the land. That proposition but he must express his opinion that the extended in his mind to this—that a action of the Government in respect of quantity of land not exceeding five acres the glebe houses was not generous or should be left to the glebe houses. But conciliatory.

then he had another proposal, which was, MR. BRIGHT said, he was very glad that in taking that course they should to hear it stated in that House, what he deal with the Prebyterians and the Rohad known before, that his hon. Friend man Catholics on the same principle. the Member for Clonmel (Mr. Bagwell) He had even gone so far, as hon. Gentlehad been as great an advocate for re- men knew, as to make a proposition ligious equality in Ireland as he himself which many of his friends regarded as

3 0 2 [Committee-Clause 27.



most unreasonable and unjust-a propo- | the opposite side of the House. They did sition which was distasteful to many oppose them, because they believed that people in the Church and in general to a just line had been drawn, and that it the Nonconformists—that the House in might lead to other proposals which, if distributing this fund might make some adopted, would materially alter the prinallowance to each of these three Churches. ciple of the Bill. The fact was that the The-Committee would, therefore, see that 700,000 people to whom his hon. Friend he was not one of those who desired to had referred were not unanimous on this be severe, harsh, or unjust towards the question, but he thought they would feel, Church which was about to be disestab- as a great political matter, that if the lished. Indeed, he suspected that he Irish Church were to be disestablished had just as much sympathy for these and disendowed, and, if it was hoped that congregations and for their faith as any any great results would follow in what he Gentleman sitting opposite. But the might call the pacification of Ireland, it Government had a great work to do, was not the interest of any Protestant and they had to show to every man in that anything should be done which might Ireland—even to the Protestants them- destroy that feeling of justice and equality selves if they would ultimately admit it, which the Government wished to spread that they had been actuated by a wish and instil in the minds of the whole to do complete and equal justice upon Roman Catholic population. The Bill this matterto all religions in that country. had been considered, as would be seen Now, the basis that he had proposed a from its clauses, with a care and minuteyear or two since was not acceptable, as ness never probably exceeded in the case he had said—it was so unacceptable that of any measure submitted to that House. he did not make the proposition in the It had been balanced, as far as it could House—but in the last Parliament the be, with a view to carry out what they House passed Resolutions and exhibited believed to be the general opinion of the a spirit which made it absolutely impos- great body of the people of this country, sible for the Government to submit his and he hoped that the Committee, seeing plan to Parliament in their Bill, even if the principle upon which it was founded, they had regarded that plan as a wise the care taken in arranging its clauses,

The present plan, therefore, was and the general justice and equality inthe only possible one, and the Govern- volved in them-even if they should think ment proposed that every life interest that, on some small points, it would be should be fully considered. There was better to make this change or give away no question in the House now upon that that—would give the Government the point. The Government had done what credit of having done what they believed he thought was admitted to be just and to be the best; and, in the hope that they fair. They had given up the churches would sustain them in what they had to the congregations throughout the done, he confidently appealed to the macountry. They proposed to give up the jority of the Committee. glebe houses, subject only to the debts MR. HUNT said, the right hon. Genwhich were due upon them, but they ob- tleman (Mr. Bright) had told them that jected, and, in his opinion, they wisely this measure was founded on principles objected, to hand over any land to the of equality ; but he did not understand new Church, or to make any further pro- how that could be made out when they vision for it. The question which came considered the difference in the treaton first in this clause with regard to the ment of the Established Church as comland for the sites would not be worth dis- pared with the treatment of the College puting about, if it were not for its prin- of Maynooth. The right hon. Gentleciple. His hon. Friend the Member for man had told them they would come to Clonmel (Mr. Bagwell) had spoken about the question of Maynooth by-and-by; it as if it were a small matter. The but he did not think it was for the right question of the sites would not amount hon. Gentleman to say in what order to more than £5,000, and, therefore the they should consider these questions, or Committee would see that were it not for whether they might compare the mode the principle involved in it, the Govern- adopted by the Government in dealing ment would not have opposed the appeal with one part of the question with the of the hon. Member for Rochester (Mr. P. mode they adopted in dealing with Wykeham-Martin), on the appeals from another part. In dealing with the Es


1865 Irish Church (APRIL 29, 1869 Bill Committee. 1866 tablished Church the Government de- SIR GEORGE JENKINSON said, he clared that there was a building charge could hardly understand how it was that upon glebe houses, and that those glebe so much confusion in the matter of houses could not be handed over without figures had been introduced into this the building charges going with them, question. According to one estimate the But in the case of the College of May- glebe houses were valued at £1,200,000 ; nooth there was also a building charge according to another the value was put which the Government proposed to ex- at £250,000; a third estimate gave the cuse altogether. If they dealt with the amount at £24,000 ; and the latest estisubject on principles of equality, why mate, just put forward by the right hon. should the debt on the College of May- Gentleman opposite (Mr. Bright) was nooth be excused, while the debt on the £5,000. It was, however, a question glebe houses was exacted from the more of principle and of feeling than of Church Body? When the Bill was last money. The right hon. Gentleman the under discussion, the Prime Minister had First Minister of the Crown had spoken said it would be a breach of faith on the of broken faith in connection with the part of Parliament if they did not pay College of Maynooth. “ Broken Faith !" the charge on Maynooth, and he said, Why, what is the whole of this Bill moreover, that it was the original in- from beginning to end—but one gigantic tention of Sir Robert Peel that these act of 5 broken faith ?” Broken faith charges should be paid. But the ques- with the Act of Union; broken faith tion did not concern Sir Robert Peel; in with the Coronation Oath ; broken faith fact, in the language of the day, they with the whole body of loyal Protestants might say that it was merely an expres- throughout the whole of Ireland, and sion of opinion on the part of Sir Robert with the clergy and curates, who had Peel; it was a question of the action of spent their money in education for the this House, which, in 1853, deliberately profession which they had undertaken, refused to pass a Vote for repairing the and who were now to be left without the College of Maynooth, and since that time means of furthering their prospects. On the Vote had never been proposed. It the question of equality and justice, of was, therefore, the deliberate intention which so much capital had been made, of Parliament and of successive Govern- he would ask what equal justice was ments to pass no Vote for that purpose, there in giving the Roman Catholic Coland the College of Maynooth ever since lege of Maynooth fourteen years' purhad had to go to the Public Works Loan chase of their Parliamentary Grant, which Commissioners to obtain loans for the would amount to an annual endowment purpose of carrying on repairs. Was of £12,000 or £18,000, according to the Parliament now to treat Maynooth as mode of investment, and giving to the though that Vote had been going on ever Protestant clergymen only a life interest since, while it treated the Established in the Irish Church ? This measure had Church in so different a fashion ? If so been called a message of charity, of conhe could see no such equality in the ciliation, of pacification. To whom was treatment of the two as the right hon. it a message of pacification ? Was it to Gentleman had spoken of.

the Fenians? They do not accept it in COLONEL GREVILLE-NUGENT said, that spirit. Was it to those who comhe was surprised that the hon. Member mitted the agrarian outrages which were for Clonmel (Mr. Bagwell) should find so frequent? Their acts seem to tell us fault with the Government for adhering a different story. Was it a message of to the clause, while at the same time he pacification to the loyal Protestants of told the House that he was pledged to Ulster, or to the clergy of Ireland ? I disendowment. If the Government were shall be much surprised if it be viewed to hand over the glebe houses in the in that light by them. He could not manner proposed, it would amount to a understand how such language could re-endowment of the Church. If all be applied to such a measure. As to its denominations could be endowed in being a measure of charity, it was curious the same manner he (Colonel-Greville charity to take money from the ProNugent) would have no objection to it; testant Church in order to give it to the but that would be against the principle Roman Catholics and to lunatics. It of the Bill, which was a measure for was not charity to give away other general disendowment.

people's money. They should remember

[Committee-Clause 27.

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