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words to the like purport, but the omission of any from the date of the last of such convictions no such statement shall not exempt any person from such license as aforesaid shall be granted to any the operation of this section."

person whatever in respect of such premises ; and

any license granted in contravention of this sec. Amendment agreed to.

tion by the Excise or otherwise shall be void.” Clause 12 (Amendment of Sect. 4 of This provision would give the magisthe Vagrant Act).

trates control over beer-houses as well as LORD ROMILLY moved to leave out, public-houses. in line 27, the words (“was unlawful or THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY rethat his intent,”). As the clause stood, gretted that melting-houses were not to an ordinary trespasser might have been be subjected to some restrictions. Were visited with severe penalties.

it not for those houses stolen plate, no THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY said, he matter were hidden, might frequently had no objection to the Amendment; but be discovered, but whenever plate was he thought his noble and learned Friend stolen it was taken to these places, and had over-rated the effect of the clause. within two or three hours after the robIts object was not to add to the punish- bery was melted down. He trusted that ment authorized by the Vagrant Act, the Government would at no distant day but to render it unnecessary to prove feel themselves in a position to deal with any overt act. At present a policeman these establishments. might see a man lurking about a house,

EARL GREY objected to any discreevidently intending to break into it, but tion being left to the magistrates as to he could not apprehend him unless the shutting up such houses after conviction, man did something incipient to breaking and thought that premises as to which in. His noble and learned Friend pro- there had been two convictions should posed to limit this provision to cases of be invariably debarred from a license felony, and the object of the Bill being for a certain time. The owners of these to deal with the graver class of crimes, houses sometimes possessed an influence he would not object to the Amendment.

over the magistrates, who would, thereAmendment agreed to.

fore, be reluctant to exercise severity. THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY said, that There was to be no discretion in the the words of the clause were too vague,

case of the tenant, and there should be and proposed to define such houses in the none in the case of the landlord.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY said, following terms:“ Lodging-house, beer-house, public-house, or to make a landlord responsible for the

that it was introducing a new principle other place where excisable liquors are sold, or place of public entertainment or public resort." character of his tenant, and he could Amendment agreed to.

not see why it should be applied exclu

sively to this particular kind of property. THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY moved The effect would be that the value of an addition to the clause, (" or allow the every public house in the kingdom would deposit of goods, having reasonable immediately fall. No landlord could be cause for believing them to be stolen"). certain that his tenant would not come Amendment agreed to.

under the operation of this clause, and

unless he had been unduly careless THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY moved

it would be hard to make the landlord an Amendment in page 6, line 3, to leave out from (" and if”) to the end of suffer. It was unwise to attempt to the clause and insert

prevent crime by indiscriminate severity

towards persons guilty of no crime, nor " And any license for the sale of any exciseable liquors or for keeping any place of public

even of

any carelessness. As to meltingentertainment or public resort which has been houses gold and silver could easily be granted to the occupier or keeper of any such melted in any good kitchen fire, so that house or place of resort as aforesaid shall be for the surveillance of those establishments feited on his first conviction of an offence under would not prevent the evil referred to this section, and on his second conviction for such an offence he shall be disqualified for a period of by the noble Earl (the Earl of Shaftestwo years from receiving any such license; more-bury). over, where two convictions under this section EARL GREY contended that if a landhave taken place within a period of two years in lord had two successive tenants who respect of the same premises, whether the per carried on business in the same objecsons convicted were or were not the same, the justices or magistrato may, if they or he so think tionable manner it was not unjust to fit, direct that for a term not exceeding one year suspend the license for a year.


THE EARL OF HARROWBY was did so several times guilty knowledge also of opinion that the punishment was might reasonably be inferred, and the not excessive, and he objected to an in- same argument applied to the receiving vidious discretion being left to the ma- of stolen goods. Such evidence would gistrates, who were often on friendly not in itself be conclusive, but it would terms with the owners of the houses. be put before the jury as an element in

THE DUKE OF CLEVELAND quite the case. agreed with the noble Lords. He

Amendment agreed to. thought that two successive tenants of bad character argued carelessness on Bill to be read 32 on Thursday next ; the part of the landlord, and that a dis- and to be printed as amended (No. 41). cretionary power would involve conflict

House adjourned at a quarter past ing decisions.

Six o'clock to Thursday nest, LORD ROMILLY agreed with the

half-past Ten o'clock. noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury) that it was a new principle to make the landlord answerable for the propriety and morality of his tenant.

The large brewers had necessarily an enormous

HOUSE OF COMMONS, number of public-houses, so that they could not be excessively fastidious as to Tuesday, 6th April, 1869. their tenants' characters, and the persons who took public-houses were of a pecu- MINUTES.) New MEMBERS SWORN-Henry liar character, for they must be persons Master Feilden, esq., for Blackburn; Edward who were not afraid of a little tumult. Kenworthy Hornby, esq., for Blackburn. He thought their Lordships would act SELECT COMMITTEE - Poor Law (Scotland), Mr.

Solicitor General for Scotland added. very harshly if they were to impose such SUPPLY considered in Committee-Resolutions a penalty upon persons presumably in- [April 5] reported— Navy Estimates. nocent without great consideration. PUBLIC BILLS Committee Report_Railway THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY thought

Companies' Meetings * [62]. cases of hardship might occur if no dis- Considered as amended-Salmon Fisheries (Ire

land) * [56]. cretion were left to the magistrates. However, as the clause stood, a landlord would for his own interests look very IRELAND-ST. PATRICK'S DAY IN sharply on his tenants' conduct. He

DUBLIN.-QUESTION. admitted that the discretionary power MR. R. FOWLER said, he wished to proposed might be somewhat invidious, ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, but this objection applied to all discre- Whether it is true, as reported in The tionary powers.

Times and other Newspapers, that at Amendment agreed to.

Guard Mounting in the Castle Yard,

Dublin, on St. Patrick's Day, the popuTHE EARL OF KIMBERLEY moved lace “indulged in revelry of a dangerous to add as a separate paragraph at end of form, and afterwards expressed their Clause 14

hatred of England by groaning and his" Moreover, where proceedings are taken against sing the National Anthem in the preany person for having in his possession stolen sence of the Lord Lieutenant of Iregoods, evidence may be given that there were land ?” found in the possession of such person other goods

MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE : stolen in two or more other robberies within the preceding period of twelve months, and such evi- Sir, I was almost sorry when I saw on dence may be taken into consideration for the the Paper the Question of the hon. purpose of proving that such person knew the Member, because it tends to give somegoods to be stolen which formed the subject of the thing like importance to circumstances proceedings taken against him."

of the most trivial nature. But of course This addendum was intended to carry into I have made it my business to ascertain effect the suggestion that the law as to the facts, both officially from the Police guilty knowledge in the case of receiving Commissioners and from persons in the stolen goods should be assimilated to suite of the Lord Lieutenant, and perthat in the case of uttering base coin. A haps the best thing I can do is to read person might in one instance uninten- a sentence or two from the Report of the tionally utter base coin, but when he Commissioners of Police, which is more


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than confirmed by others who were pre- | Our relations with the small maritime sent. The Commissioners say

State of Jungera are of the most curious " The conduct of the populace assembled in the kind. Unconquerable by our predecesUpper Castle Yard on St. Patrick's Day on the sors in the sovereignty of Western occasion of relieving guard was, on the whole, India, this little State, although absomore orderly than has been the case on former lutely insignificant in point of material similar occasions. The yard was crowded to excess, so much so that many people failed in their strength, has been unconquered even by endeavours to get in. Their Excellencies the us. The attitude of Jungera towards Lord Lieutenant and the Countess Spencer were the British Government is partly courmost enthusiastically received on their appearance teous, partly apprehensive, partly repelon the balcony. A few roughs' got up a dance lent. This attitude our authorities refor a short time ;I suppose this was the “dangerous absolutely forced to do so. Although

spect, never interfering except when revelry" spoken of

Jungera is so near Bombay, its rude nothing, however, but good-humour prevailed ; and after the bands left the yard the crowd broke independence is not tempered by the up and went peaceably to their homes. It would presence of a British Resident, and hence appear that there was a certain amount of hissing we have not the same facilities for knowand groaning when the National Anthem was ing what goes on there that we have played at the close of the proceedings, but not with reference to most native Courts. greater than in former years on the same occa- The tenour of such information as has sion, nor than may be heard, more or less, at the theatres."

reached us about the affair to which my

hon. Friend calls attention is at variance I am sorry to say that it has been a very bad and offensive habit on the part of with the information that has reached the lowest of the population of Dublin him, but we intend to make some further on some of these occasions to express

inquiries into the matter. disapprobation of the National Anthem —not, I believe, out of any personal dis- ARMY-EXPENDITURE ON FORTIFICArespect to Her Majesty, but thinking

TIONS.-QUESTION. that it is an emblem of British connection, I suppose. Upon the occasion re- to ask the First Lord of the Treasury,

MR. FAWCETT said, he would beg ferred to by the hon. Member, however, whether, considering the state of the there was

nothing unusual, and nothing Revenue, he will consent to suspend for Which ought to have been described in the present all expenditure upon Fortifithe words of the extract which he

cations? quoted.


permission to answer the Question of the

hon. Gentleman. Under the existing QUESTION.

Acts there is power to raise £5,950,000 MR. EYKYN said, he wished to ask upon a total estimated cost of £7,470,000, the Under Secretary of State for India, and up to the end of last year there had Whether his attention has been called been expended £5,332,806. It will be to the Petition of Nawab Seeda Abdoul, evident that, in order to complete the claiming to be the rightful Nawab of works, it will be necessary for the GoJungera; whether it is true, as stated in vernment to bring the subject again such Petition, that the reigning Nawab under the consideration of the House. has kept for many years, and is still I may suggest to my hon. Friend that keeping, the family of Nawab Seeda the day after to-morrow the state of the Abdoul in confinement in a fortress at revenue will be laid before the House sea; and, whether the Government have by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor taken any and what steps for their re- of the Exchequer, and that a Committee lease ?

was appointed by the right hon. GenMR. GRANT DUFF: Sir, to the tleman who preceded me in my present first of my hon. Friend's Questions I Office to examine and report upon the am able to give a direct answer. My whole state of the Fortifications. I have attention has been called to this peti- not yet received that Report, but I untion, and there is no validity whatever derstand that it is likely to be made in the claim of the petitioner. To the very shortly. As soon as it is made it second Question I cannot give so direct will be laid upon the table of the House, an answer, for the following reason :- and with these two pieces of information


before them the House will be able to would have the effect of promoting form a judgment upon the whole subject. correspondence, and would prove one of

MR. FAWCETT: Am I to understand the most valuable feeders for the legitithat no more money will be spent until mate business of the Post Office. In the House has had an opportunity of other countries, where trade and comexpressing its opinion ?

merce were valued, great facilities were MR. CARDWELL: I did not mean afforded for the circulation of the to convey the impression that any orders species of information he referred to. will be given to stop the present expen- In the United States 1d. carried three diture. I have stated the amount of circulars throughout the length and money which we are empowered to raise, breadth of the land. In France, where and how nearly the amount already ex- the postage on letters was 1d. within pended has reached that point. At an the barriers and 2d. outside, one-tenth early period, therefore, it will be neces- of 1d. carried a circular throughout the sary that the House should be again whole of the country, including Algiers. consulted upon the subject.

In Belgium, with a letter postage of id.,

a similar reduction was made for the dePOST OFFICE-INLAND POSTAGE.

livery of circulars; England alone con

tinued to levy a tax on the distribuRESOLUTION.

tion of circulars, which were acknowMR. GRAVES, in rising to call at- ledged to be a necessity for commerce. tention to the rates of Inland Postage He had tried to ascertain the amount on printed matter, said, the first thing of circulars distributed by the Post which directed his attention to the sub- throughout the whole country, but he ject was the discovery that in his own had not been able to arrive at any neighbourhood, some three to five miles conclusive result. By the Post Office from the Post Office, the great bulk of Reports it appeared that 4,500,000 the trade circulars were distributed by printed circulars were delivered in the hand, and not through the Post Office, London district in 1865, and, assuming and repeated inquiries satisfied him that about one-third of the letter corthat the Post was used for the delivery respondence of the country was distriof circulars to a very small and insig- buted in the metropolis, the amount of nificant extent. He was also satisfied circulars distributed in the whole of the that the tariff of id. for four ounces United Kingdom might be taken to have amounted almost to a prohibition in the been at that time about 13,000,000, case of circulars, and that a concession yielding a revenue of £54,000. It was by the Post Office of a d. rate for two difficult to ascertain the number of cirounces of printed matter would be re- culars delivered by private hand. A garded as a boon by the commercial short time ago an effort was made in community. Since his Motion had been Liverpool to discover the number, and placed on the Paper he had received about 238 replies were received in anmany communications on this subject swer to applications for information on from all parts of the country. Gen- the subject, showing the number of cir

| erally speaking, the writers approved the culars delivered by private hand in that principle of the Motion with which he town in the course of the year approached meant to conclude, but some advocated 2,000,000; and some of the replies stated greater facilities for receiving and de- that if the postage were reduced to d. livering letters ; some, a reduced fee for two ounces' weight one-third of the on registered letters; others, a reduc- number would be sent through the Post tion upon money letters; and some Office, and that if the postage were reurged a greater payment to the subordi- duced to 1d. nearly the entire number nate officials of the Post Office, espe- would be so sent. The private delivery of cially the letter carriers, in consider- circulars offered a great inducement, on ation of the increased work which such a the score of economy, to tradesmen. In project as this would throw upon them. London there is a company called the But he did not desire to be considered a Letter Circular Delivery Company, formpostal department reformer, and his ed entirely of those persons whose cironly object was to reduce the fees for culars were delivered by means of the the transmision of printed matter and company, as it would be illegal for newspapers, a course which, if adopted, any third party to interfere with the


Post circulation; and here he might ob- 1 in saying that a single paper, now pubserve that, as the Post Office claimed lished in London and printed every a monopoly, that establishment ought morning, had a greater circulation in the either to deliver circulars at a moderate year by some 10,000,000 copies than the and economical rate or permit others to whole circulation of newspapers in 1838. do so. One firm on Saturday sent to the In 1846 there were 555 newspapers pubcompany he had mentioned 50,000 circu- lished in the country, two of which only lars for distribution. Their charge was jd. were sold at the price of 2d. In 1861 the each for circulars, and }d.for newspapers. number of papers published was 1,102, There was also another society which and of these 309 were published at the assisted in the circulation of printed price of ld. and under. In 1868 the matter-namely, the Corps of Commis- number of newspapers published was sionaires, and their charge for delivery 1,372, and of these 50 per cent were sold all over London was 58. per 100 up to at ld. and under. Of that number 1,000, and after 1,000 the charge was eighty-nine were daily papers, eighty of by a graduated scale to 18. 6d. if the which were published at 1d. or id. each. number exceeded 10,000. It had been He had obtained these particulars from suggested to him that he should go Mr. Mitchell, a gentleman who published further than proposing a charge of the Newspaper Press Directory. He had id. for two ounces, and propose a also looked into the case with regard to charge of 1d. for one ounce. Such a the periodicals and cheap serials, pubresult might ultimately be arrived at; lished in the metropolis, and he found but at present he thought it prudent to that there again literature was gradually ask for a moderate concession, which he becoming cheaper and cheaper. There trusted would be granted, especially by a were 198 newspapers and weekly publiGovernment claiming so largo a measure cations printed in London ; 75 at a ld. of support from the commercial interests and five at Of monthlies there were of the country. It was only right that he 364; ninety at a ld. and twenty-five at should say that during last year he had 3d., and all these 1d. and 3d. publicarepeated interviews with the then Chan- tions, with not half-a-dozen exceptions, cellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Hunt), and have direct religious and moral he was led to the conclusion that the tendency, their aim and object being to right hon. Gentleman was of opinion educate and elevate the people in religion that circulars and such-like matter should and morality. There was a disappearbe carried at a cheaper rate, and that it ance from the list of everything that was merely a question of time when such could be considered of an unwholesome a change should be adopted. In his character. This was a most encouraganxiety to obtain as much information ing feature in the literature of the on this subject as possible, he became present day, and presented a strong conscious of a much larger and more in- argument in favour of moving in teresting question lying behind, one hav- the direction he now indicated to the ing a great bearing on the social well- House. Foreign countries displayed an being of the people. While the postage entirely different policy, with regard to of id. acted as a tax on the trade and this class of literature, to that adopted in industry of the country, it also operated this country. Special facilities were as a serious tax on the education of the afforded for its circulation in almost people and the diffusion of intelligence every other country, where it was reby restricting the circulation of news- garded as a means of improvement for papers and cheap serial productions, the people, and conferring upon them which are now so popular a part of the important social benefits. Belgium literature of the country. When the 1d. charged one-tenth of a ld.; had seven postage system was established, some daily deliveries in all large towns; and thirty years ago, 1d. papers were not in throughout the country had one deliexistence, and the postage might then very at every man's house daily. In have borne a fair proportion to the cost Italy the same rate was established. In of the article. But circumstances were France one-fifth of a 1d. carried a newsnow entirely altered. The number of paper everywhere, even to Algiers. In newspapers published in 1838 was 444, Tuscany, the Netherlands, Brazil, Portuand their total circulation amounted to gal, the charge was only one-fourth 26,000,000. He believed he was correct of a 1d.; while in Switzerland it was



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