347 Navy-Armament {LORDS} of Turret-Ships. called upon in the next two or three miralty could not be held res years to introduce 50-ton instead of As to what guns were being 25-ton guns into these ships. If, how- for the flying squadron, he ever, such should be the case, the turrets answer the question at once, b were so constructed that, instead of take another opportunity of carrying two 25-ton guns, they could, The noble Duke had compla by a slight alteration, be made to carry vessels of this class had what one 44 or 50-ton gun. The noble Duke as their freeboard habituall had complained that the Monarch was the sea; but this was not n no guide for the future; but the reason an inconvenience, for it had be was that it differed in almost every par- in action that the water pass ticular from the type of vessels now the freeboard was an additi about to be built. The Monarch had fence, by causing the shot t large masts and yards, while these vessels When the noble Duke said had none ; it carried a much larger freeboard was only 4 feet 6 i crew, and had a high freeboard, while was no doubt verbally correc these vessels had a very low one. It nally the freeboard of these tw would have been useless, therefore, to was only 4 feet 6 inches; but th wait for experiments with the Monarch ralty proposed to apply to them and Captain, for no experiments with tem of armour-plated breastwo them would prove the merits or demerits had been adopted in the cas of high as compared with low freeboards, Cerberus, the Magdala, and the both of them being vessels of high free- This would raise the freeboa board. The Monarch had 14 feet, and 4 feet 6 inches to nearly 12 fe the Captain 8 feet of freeboard, whereas armour-plated breastwork migh the new vessels had only 4 feet 6 inches cribed as an additional bulwar of freeboard nominally, and the Mian- 7 feet 6 inches in height, and w tonomah and Monadnock, which most tically the same as the side of closely corresponded to the new class It was covered with armou of vessels, had only 2 feet 7 inches, and 12 inches thick, and decked i 3 feet 2 inches. He was hardly in a top, the deck being covered with position to state why the Controller and plates 24 inches thick. This Chief Constructor were now in favour perforated with creeping-hole of a low freeboard, but he presumed afforded an entrance into the sh the reason to be that the Monarch and was not clear whether the nob Captain were intended to be sea-going thought a high freeboard was p ships and for sea-going purposes almost to a low one. He himself was of entirely, whereas the two new vessels that, for the reasons he had me were for the general purposes of war- and considering also the savin fare, and would be used for whatever pense that would be effected in emergency might arise. It might be ter of armour-plates, a low freeb very disagreeable to live on this class greatly preferable to a high o of vessels, but as long as other nations would briefly call their Lordship built them, and as long as they proved tion to the opinions expressed by the most powerful in the world, England eminent men on this subject. would find it necessary to imitate her of all he would remind the nob neighbours. As to running over these that he must not compare vessels, and taking the chance of what vessels now proposed to be by might happen, it was just possible that the Monarch and the Captain just as a ship was approaching a turret- differed from them in almost ev ship for that purpose, one of these ticular. The vessels which mos 25-ton guns might suddenly arrest its bled those about to be laid do progress. Noble Lords whose ances- the Miantonomah and the Monadn tors had gained considerable renown at First Lord of the Admiralty, h sea would probably be not only surprised, remark, did not make up his but terrified at seeing one of these ex- this question without taking i traordinary vessels, and he feared stokers sideration every possible pos would in future be of more account than affairs, and consulting the most seamen. This, however, was one of the men. On the 24th of March h conditions of warfare for which the Ad- before a full Board at the Ad The Earl of Camperdown 350 For the following gentlemen:-The Earl of placing a true account of the matter beLauderdale, Admiral Young, Captain fore their Lordships. Cowper Coles, Dr. Woolley, Mr. Fairbairn, and Admiral Key. The designs would not enter into the discussion conTHE EARL OF HARDWICKE said, he of the two ships were brought under the cerning the details of these two ships, notice of the meeting by the Constructor because he knew nothing about them. of the Navy and the Controller, who But there was one point which struck gave a full explanation of them. Sub- him as being a distinct one. sequently the First Lord invited all the to him that, as far as general purposes It appeared gentlemen present to express their free were concerned, it was contrary to comand uncontrolled opinions on four points mon seamanlike practice and understand-1st, as to the low freeboard; 2nd, as standing to construct vessels with a low to the absence of masts; 3rd, as to the freeboard and without masts. employment of twin screws in respect of freeboard meant a wet ship, which could A low the draught of water; 4th, as to the not fight her guns in a heavy sea. armament. He (the Earl of Camper- general purposes it would be better to down) might say that there was great have masts, though their absence might concurrence of opinion that a low free- be advantageous if the vessels were inboard was the most desirable. They tended exclusively for purposes of war. were also agreed that it was very de- Then, if these vessels were to draw sirable that there should be no masts, twenty-six feet of water, they would be and, like the noble Duke, they perceived unfitted for the purposes for which they the advantage of twin screws. Then as to the armament they were very nearly impress more strongly on their Lordwere designed. This discussion would agreed. The 50-ton gun was not then ships' minds the fact that we were coninvented, and the 25-ton gun was suffi- tinually trying experiments at an imcient to perforate any armour - plate mense cost. hitherto made. Under the circumstances, were absolutely necessary or not he would Whether such experiments therefore, it was thought desirable to not say; but at all events they did not adhere to the 25-ton gun; but he might seem to rest anywhere, and we had mention that either turret might by wasted a prodigious sum of money to no means of slight alterations be rendered purpose. Only a very short time, comcapable of carrying one 50-ton gun in- paratively speaking, had elapsed since stead of two 25-ton guns. read to their Lordships an extract from vented; but during that period a conHe would the method of armour-plating was ina letter, addressed on the 6th instant to stant struggle had been maintained the Secretary of the Admiralty by Ad- with regard to armour-plates. He bemiral Hope, who was in command at lieved, however, that if you were to Portsmouth. It ran as follows:- place two armour-plated vessels along"Sir,-In reply to your letter of the 3rd in-side each other, whatever might be the stant, you will be pleased to acquaint the Lords thickness of the plates, a fight between Commissioners of the Admiralty that, after a care- them would end like a contest under ful perusal of the papers describing the new de- similar circumstances between two of the signs for armour-clad ships, I entirely concur in old wooden ships. Both would be penethe principles upon which these designs are based, as stated in italics in Paper A'; and that I look trated, although the amount of destrucforward to these vessels, or others of even a more tion would be far greater in armourformidable description, should it be found prac- plated than in wooden ships. After all ticable and expedient to increase the calibre of our experiments we had not succeeded in the guns, becoming the line-of-battle ships of the future." producing a ship which could prevent the first requisite for a ship was that she entrance of a shot. In his opinion the should be tolerably safe when afloat on the ocean, but this was a condition which was now very much disregarded. The last report of the Admiral commanding the Channel Fleet stated that he had not been able to test the seaworthiness of the vessels except in one instance, when a ship-the name of which he (the Earl of Hardwicke) could not call to mind That, in his judgment fully justified the First Lord of the Admiralty in taking the course he did. He had endeavoured to answer as far as he could the Questions of the noble Duke, and had stated the reasons for which, as he believed, these changes were made. If, on further inquiry, he should find that he had been inaccurate in any particular, he would take the earliest opportunity of in very moderate weather, was ordered to fire from her bow port, but she shipped such an enormous quantity of water through the port that she could not fire the gun. In the former Report to the Admiralty it was stated that they had rough weather-the very thing they wanted-and the ships rolled so heavily in a very moderate sea that they could not fire the guns. Besides, the ships were so flooded with water that he heard it said that the Admiral had to swim for his life inside his own vessel. The story of the British fleet was lamentable. Why, then, were they going on with experiment after experiment? The noble Earl (the Earl of Camperdown) had stated that two new ships were to be taken in hand before the two on the stocks had been tried, and these new vessels were to be without masts or yards. He (the Earl of Hardwicke) did not think that at all a wise course of proceeding. If we were to have guns of such vast size as twenty-five tons, no doubt they must be carried, not on the broadside, but on a turntable; but the result of all that was being done was an enormous expenditure. And then there was no classification. They had engines of different sizes, but none of the same class. But after all this enormous expenditure, what was looming in the distance? Had any noble Lord read what had occurred in the last American civil war? They fought battles by sea, but the public did not know the number of vessels that had foundered owing to the employment of the torpedo, which had acted with the greatest possible effect. It seemed to him that all our expenditure and all our experiments would lead up to the perfecting of those machines-the torpedoes -and the result would be to make useless and obsolete all the improvements they had made. Would it not, therefore, be wise under these circumstances to suspend operations, and rest a little while to perfect what had been already done? THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN said, the noble Earl who had just sat down (the Earl of Hardwicke) had complained that those two new ships which the Admiralty proposed to build would have a very low freeboard. But did the noble Earl suppose that if they were to have as high a freeboard as could be given to themif they were to have a freeboard 14 feet high-that would make them more dry and comfortable? Then the noble Earl said that they would be a source of great expense, and that we ought to wait until the Captain and Monarch had been tried. The Captain and Monarch were vessels of an entirely different class, and no doubt the vessels would be expensive; but it remained to be proved whether sails would have any effect whatever on a turret-ship. Suppose we did not go to this expenditure, and that we were to remain content with the state of things that existed four or five years ago, if we should get into a war with the United States, and they were to destroy our navy, did not the noble Earl think that great fault would be found with the present Board of Admiralty and with other past Boards because they had neglected to increase our naval strength in the meantime? The noble Earl had alluded to the Bellerophon and said that it had been impossible to fire her guns in a moderate sea. That, he believed, was perfectly true; but then it was only fair to state that the Bellerophon was going at the time with full steam. As for waiting until the Monarch and Captain were tried, that would hardly be advisable, because the new vessels were to be of an entirely different class and had nothing in common with the others, and if we were to wait it would throw our naval operations entirely into arrear. THE DUKE OF SOMERSET inquired whether the Admiralty would lay on the table certain Papers in connection with the subject? There was no necessity for secresy about any of the vessels we were building. The French had observed no secresy with regard to their ships, but had given us all the information which we had asked for. He wished also to ask whether any of the 25-ton guns had been tried with a full charge, for that was a very important consideration before they were to be put on board the turret-ships? THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN said, he did not exactly know whether it would be in his power to make public the Papers to which the noble Duke had referred, but if he could do so he would lay them on the table. As to whether any of the 25-ton guns had been fired with a full charge, he thought that could hardly have been the case, because the turrets had not been made. THE DUKE OF SOMERSET said, the guns would, of course, be tried before they were put into the turrets. THE "TORNADO." PETITION OF CREW. THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE presented Petitions of Andrew Sillars and others of the crew of the Tornado, and of Catherine Macpherson, widow of third mate of the Tornado, for compensation and redress for injuries sustained from the Spanish Government. As their Lordships were well aware these petitioners had undergone a great deal of hardship; their property had been taken away, though they had committed no offence either against municipal or International Law. They had been treated as if they were prisoners of war, and yet they had done nothing which could render them liable to such treatment. It was now three years and a-half since their property was taken, and they had obtained no redress whatever for the injuries they had suffered. It was entirely unprecedented that these people should have their money taken from them, and having suffered such grievances they were surely entitled to know why. It was true that they had been set at liberty upon the remonstrances of our Government some time ago; but their property had not been restored, and no attempt had been made by the Spanish Government to consider their case. The opinion of the lawyers of this country was that they had been treated in a lawless manner. He hoped his noble Friend the Foreign Secretary would give his attention to their case; for, notwithstanding the difficulties which all must acknowledge to have arisen from the change of Government in Spain, it could not be denied that there was no case for further delay. He wished to know what had been done in the matter? THE EARL OF CLARENDON: I am afraid I cannot give a very distinct answer to the Question that has been put by my noble Friend; but all your Lordships must be aware that this unfortunate case has been very protracted, and that, owing partly to the proceedings of the Spanish courts and partly to those of the counsel for the defendants, this case has become one of great intricacy as well as great delay. All the Papers. have been laid on the table of the House except a few which I can present next week. Those who study the case will see that my noble Friend the late SecreVOL. CXCV. [THIRD SERIES.] tary for Foreign Affairs did everything he possibly could to protect the right of the prisoners to an impartial tribunal, and Sir John Crampton was particularly instructed to demand the liberation of the crew. There have been two trials; at the first the prisoners were represented; at the second they were not. The Spanish Government has all along considered the men as prisoners of war. Macpherson was actually in the service of the Chilian Government, and was taken prisoner in the ship as it was going into the service of Chili. My noble Friend, after consulting the Law Officers respecting the second trial, felt unable to maintain that there had been any denial of justice; but as there had been a promise to a certain extent that the case should be re-heard, we have sent out to ask for a new trial. We have not yet received a definitive answer from the Spanish Government, but we know from Sir John Crampton that the matter has been decided by the Supreme Council in Spain, and is now under the consideration of the Government. I can only say that if there is anything we can do, either in the shape of remonstrance or argument, I shall be most happy to do it; but I am Spanish Government will not take the same view of the matter as that taken by my noble Friend. The Spanish Government regards the vessel as a vessel of war and a good prize, and the men consequently as prisoners of war. not therefore probable that Spain will pay the indemnity my noble Friend claims. sure the It is THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE said, he did not believe any opinion existed declaring the trial to have been a proper one, nor that Spain would venture to declare, in the face of Europe, that a trial in which persons were examined under torture could be a fair one. Lord Stanley had not admitted that the trial and confiscation were legal, and he hoped the noble Earl had not done so. THE EARL OF CLARENDON said, he had expressed no opinion at all upon any of these points. Petition ordered to be laid upon the Table. MR. STAPLETON said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether his attention has been called to a statement in The a Times of the 27th instant, that a Ritualistic procession took place on Good Friday in the parish of St. George in the East, in this Metropolis, which started from St. Peter's Church, and went all round the parish through the public streets, headed by the incumbent in plain cassock, a curate, choristers, and others, making twelve stations by the way, at each of which the incumbent delivered a discourse referring to the ascent of Mount Calvary; and, whether such processions were in accordance with the Law? MR. BRUCE: Sir, I read the report of this procession in the newspapers, but I have received no account from the Metropolitan Police, nor does it appear that any report of it was sent to the Chief Commissioner. These processions are not in themselves illegal. The law makes no distinction between religious and political processions or assemblages; but, if they are likely to lead to a breach of the peace, there are methods by which they can be put a stop to or rendered illegal. An information may be sworn before the justices, and thereupon notice will be given to the parties that such procession or assemblage tends to a breach of the peace, is unlawful, and must not be held. If no such fears are apprehended, then those persons who are interested in preventing the disturbance of the streets may apply a general remedy which is open to anybody-I mean the general remedy under the Highway Act, by which a penalty of 40s. may be imposed on any person who IRISH CHURCH BILL-QUESTION. MR. DISRAELI: Sir, I wish to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, To state at once the number and names of the persons proposed to be appointed Commissioners of Church Temporalities in Ireland under Section 3 of the Irish Church Bill? MR. GLADSTONE: Sir, I am very sorry that I cannot meet what would appear to be the wish of the right hon. Gentleman-that I should state at once the numbers and names of the persons proposed by the Government as Commissioners under the Irish Church Bill, further than by saying that in an indirect manner a statement is made in the Bill with respect to the number of the The number which we Commissioners. have contemplated-and I hope it will be sufficient for the purposes of the Bill But I am not able to speak is three. positively even upon the subject of the number, though it would only be with great reluctance if we found it absolutely necessary to take power to exI am not in a contend that number. dition to state the names of the CommisI will ensioners at the present time. deavour before going into Committee on the Bill to give the House intimation of the period at which we hope to be able to propose the number and names in a definite manner. METROPOLIS-NEW COURTS OF MR. W. H. SMITH said, he wished to ask the First Commissioner of Works, If it is the intention of the Government to proceed with the Courts of Justice Concentration (Acquisition of Additional Site) Bill during this Session? MR. LAYARD said, in reply, that it was not the intention of the Government to bring in the Bill at present. He would wait until the Motion of his hon. Friend the Member for Galway (Mr. W. H. Gregory) on this subject was disposed of. IRELAND-THE FENIAN PRISONERS. QUESTION. SIR GEORGE JENKINSON said, he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, As some misapprehension prevails as to the thirty-four Fenian Con |