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see that there is a good deal more than | Member seems to suppose that we could that in it. Because the question is really simply by an act of our volition, introthis-What appointments will you throw duce open competition at once into the open to public competition? And that Civil Service. I wish to point out the question involves a further question-fallacy of that supposition. Our pubWhat is the state of the public offices lic offices are so organized in some and departments at present, and are cases wrongly perhaps that we have a they in such a condition that it would be large number of gentlemen on the esfair and right to throw everything in tablishments, many of whom, when they them open to public competition without get in, have really a very limited and any change or modification? These are poor prospect before them-the prospect the questions which the hon. Gentleman's of a life of labour without any great Motion raises. It raises, besides, other chance of advancement at the end of it questions which I think he has scarcely however competent and able they may considered. He speaks of "all appoint- be. The organization may be somewhat ments to the Civil and Diplomatic Ser- different in the different offices, but there vices." Does he mean to include Staff is not that entirely open career to merit appointments? Does he mean that which seems to exist in the University of gentlemen of mature years obtaining Cambridge. I am an Oxford man, but those appointments are to be subjected I confess I always understood that the to examination? If not, would it not University of Cambridge had been very have been better if he had limited the careful in its institutions to guard against proposition to that part of the argument the operation of the very principle of with which we could concur? [MR. which the hon. Member considers the FAWCETT: I said appointments to the University to be the representative. I Civil Service, and not in it.] Exactly have always understood that Cambridge so; but gentlemen are appointed to the differs from Oxford in this-that whereas Civil Service at very mature years, and for a Fellowship at Oxford every member that is just the point which the hon. of the University can be a candidate, for Gentleman has omitted. When he asks a Fellowship at Cambridge only members us to pass a Resolution of this immense of the particular College can be candiimportance it would be more satisfactory, dates, and that, in fact, the small ColI think, to see that these things had been leges exclude the men belonging to well considered, and in such a way as to Trinity College or St. John's, just for the contemplate appointments to the Diplo-very purpose of allowing inferior men bematic Service. A person may be sent longing to their own Colleges to obtain the out as a diplomatist who has not gone Fellowships. They have always excluded through the whole course of diplomacy. free competition, and therefore I do not We are not, it is true, making an Act of think that the hon. Member's instance Parliament, but, still, if the House is to of the poor man at Cambridge was a very bind itself by Resolution it ought to fortunate one. I would remind the House guard itself against making it so exten- that no greater cruelty or injury can be sive as to involve consequences which conceived than to invite candidates for the hon. Gentleman, I am sure, does not Government offices to this open competifor a moment contemplate. But to re- tion, to subject them to strict and difficult turn to the Motion. I do not think any- examinations, and so to obtain the serone who has ever taken the trouble to vices of superior or highly educated consider what I have said on this subject young men, and then to condemn them will suppose that I am in any way an to a career of hopeless routine, from enemy to competition. Since I have which there is no probability whatever been in Parliament I have always done of their escape. This is a thing that everything in my power to promote it. ought to be considered before we can Indeed, I had the happiness to take my comply with the hon. Gentleman's Moshare in founding the system of Indian tion. We cannot regard it as a matter competition in 1854, when I was Secre- which we can introduce at once. tary to the Board of Control. I have cannot say off-hand that henceforth, innot a word to say against the arguments stead of patronage or limited competiof the hon. Member in my own individual tion, we will have open competition in capacity. What I want the hon. Member all our public offices. The effect of such and the House to see is this-that the hon. a sudden change would be great hard

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ship and great cruelty, and would un-petition, and steps were taken not long doubtedly not only do a great injury to after in that direction. The hon. Gena number of deserving young men, but tleman, therefore, has a fair guarantee would also be a great injury to the Civil in the antecedents of my right hon. Service, because it is not in human Friend that this question will receive his nature that a man of high acquirements attention; and I would ask, is it fair or who has succeeded in a difficult compe- right to press the Motion further? I tition should be satisfied unless he had cannot say anything on behalf of the some better prospects open to him than Government at large, simply because we many of the offices under the Crown have not had time to consider this queswould afford. I do not say that this is tion. We have been a very short time an irremovable obstacle, but I do say in Office, and we have been overthat it is one that must be removed by whelmed, as the House may readily the internal re-organization of these believe, with an enormous quantity of offices, and the division of labour, me- business of immense responsibility. A chanical and intellectual, before commit- great many other questions of the greatting a kind of fraud on the public or a est importance are standing over, very great injury on a number of deserving much to the regret of their advocates, young men by throwing all the appoint- simply because the Government have ments open to public competition. The not been able to give attention to them. inference is that it would be vain for This question is among the number. us to think of passing an abstract Re- But, considering the antecedents of my solution of this kind, unless we carried right hon. Friend, and also, if it be not out a complete re-organization of the presumptuous to say so, my own antedifferent offices, dividing the intellectual cedents, I do not think it can be necesfrom the merely mechanical duties. The sary to press this Motion further. The question is, what ought to be done with hon. Member has treated the question this Motion? I should say that the simply as one of patronage. I think I hon. Member has, in the former career have shown that it involves more than of my right hon. Friend at the head of that, and, as a necessary condition precethe Government, as good a guarantee as dent to the adoption of his principle, he can desire that this subject will meet that we must have a thorough review with most favourable consideration. My and re-organization of the public serright hon. Friend was one of those vice to which he wishes to apply it. Ministers who, in 1854, inserted in the That review and re-organization we Speech from the Throne a declaration have not had time to attempt, and I cerwhich was well understood at the time to tainly think it hard that a Government, mean a desire on the part of the Go- which contains some of the warmest and vernment to introduce competition for most consistent advocates of this princiappointments in the public departments. ple, who for years have been fighting its From that time to the present the ques- battles, should suddenly have a Motion tion has never ceased to have the power- of this kind pressed upon them before ful advocacy of my right hon. Friend they have had time for deliberation in whenever the opportunity arose. The their collective capacity, seeming to impassage in the Queen's Speech of 1854, ply that, on their part, there has been which was advised by Ministers, of whom some apathy or lukewarmness. my right hon. Friend was one, is as hon. Gentleman must determine for follows:himself the course which he thinks best

"The establishment requisite for the conduct of the Civil Service and the arrangements bearing on its condition, have recently been under review; and I shall direct a plan to be laid before you which will have for its object to improve the sys tem of admission, and thereby to increase the efficiency of the Service."

Of course those words were guarded, as an intimation put into the mouth of Her Majesty must be; but they were perfectly understood at the time to refer to the opening of the appointments to com

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calculated to advance the cause for which he is contending. If he should think it his duty to persevere, I can only say, speaking for myself, that, worded as the Motion is in so wide and sweeping a manner, omitting as it does the qualifications that are necessary, and overlooking the steps that must be taken for the re-organization of the public departments, in justice to the candidates themselves, before the principle can be carried out, although no one is more

favourable to that principle than I am, I certainly shall not be able to give my vote for the Motion.

COLONEL SYKES said, he had been a Member of the Committee which investigated the subject of appointments in May, 1860. Some scandalous abuses of patronage were brought before them in the Registrar General's Department upon its formation; in one case it was stated that a lunatic had been appointed to a clerkship, and in another a greengrocer. They had several instances of that kind of objectionable appointments on account of age, broken state of health, proper qualifications, and even bad character, and the Committee came almost unanimously to the conclusion that, at all events with regard to the introduction into the service, there should be some proof given that the person appointed should have certain mental qualifications. Appointments in India had been thrown open to competition, owing in a great degree to the efforts of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the experiment had proved highly successful. The standard of mental acquirements, he believed, were higher there than among the civil servants of any other country. The present Government were very favour able to the principle of competition, but at present they seemed indisposed to give effect to it. If, therefore, the hon. Member for Brighton (Mr. Fawcett) pressed his Motion to a division, he should vote with him; for he could only mean by his Motion that the qualifications of candidates were to be tested before they were allowed to enter the service.

LORD STANLEY: As I was Chairman of the Committee which sat some years ago upon this subject, I may be allowed to join in the appeal which has been made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the hon. Member for Brighton (Mr. Fawcett). I decidedly think that if the hon. Member were to divide the house upon this Resolution he would place many of us in a false position, who like myself are generally favourable to the principle of the Resolution, but who are not prepared to adopt it in quite so sweeping and unqualified a form. I have always thought, and I do think now, that a great deal may be done in the way of extending the principle of competition in the administrative

services of the country; but I do not think it would be a wise or statesmanlike course on the part of this House to say, in an imperative way, by a Resolution to the Government-"You shall adopt exclusively and absolutely the principle of open competition in all branches of the Civil Service,' " unless you are prepared to do more than that, and to indicate the manner in which the principle can be practically carried out. I must say that if reform in this matter has not advanced so rapidly as it seemed likely some years ago, I think it has mainly been owing to the fact that public interest in it has not been awakened to the extent which one might have expected. When I was at the India Office eleven years ago, I tried the experiment of opening some clerkships to absolutely open competition. Well, there was a very large number of competitors, but those who succeeded, I believe, were neither above nor below the average of gentlemen who ordinarily fill similar situations; but I did not find that any greater interest was felt in the matter, or that any great encouragement was given by the public to the repetition of that experiment. I quite agree, too, with what was said by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that, if you are to throw open the Civil Service to competition, you must make the prizes worth having, and you cannot do that unless you separate the more mechanical from the more intellectual part of the duties. It is really a mockery to throw open examinations, to invite everybody to come in and take part in them, and to establish a standard of merit, if the rewards which the successful are to obtain are little better after all, if not actually less in amount, than those which could be obtained by the same persons in ordinary private business. I merely wish to add a word upon another part of the question. I always felt-long before I had anything to do with the Foreign Office-very considerable doubt whether the case of the Diplomatic Service and that of the Civil Service stood in this matter upon the same footing. No doubt diplomacy does require some qualifications which you can test in the ordinary way by examinations, but it also requires other qualifications, which one may say without any disrespect, you are not quite certain to find in men who, by

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their own unassisted industry, have that instead of an increased adoption of raised themselves from a very humble the competitive system it was less widely social position. There is also this con- enforced of late years than in 1856-7. sideration. If you were to apply this The Committee that sat in 1860 reported Resolution to the Diplomatic Service that the Civil Service should be thrown you would exclude yourselves from em- open for competition to the whole of the ploying in that profession anyone who Queen's subjects-subject only to certain. had not been exclusively trained to it. conditions as to age, health, and other No doubt that has been our system of qualifications, and he scarcely thought late years and under ordinary circum- that the terms of the present Resolution stances it has worked well. But it is would be found stronger than that. He one thing to adopt a system ordinarily, doubted whether the terms of the present and another to tie yourself down to it Motion were stronger than those of the by a Resolution, so that you will never former Motion on the same subject, to be able to depart from it. I hope the which several Members of Her Majeshon. Gentleman will be content with ty's Government were pledged. He rehaving raised this question. If he di- garded the speech of the Vice Presivides the House, feeling as I do upon dent of the Committee of Council, who the subject, I shall not be able to oppose was speaking as the mouthpiece of the him; but, on the other hand, neither Government, on the second reading shall I be able to vote in favor of the of the Endowed Schools Bill, during Resolution. the present Session, as containing more MR. DILKE said, he thought the than a mere promise that the Governnoble Lord, the Member for King's ment would do something at an indefiLynn (Lord Stanley), took somewhat too nite time. The objection that it was high a view of a vote of that House if he necessary to separate the merely mesupposed that it would preclude the chanical from the intellectual labour in Government from employing anyone in the Civil Service was, no doubt, very the Diplomatic Service who had not ob-important; but the gentleman who first tained entrance into the Service by open suggested that alteration (Mr. Horace competition. It was a remarkable fact that Resolutions very similar to that before them had been on two former occasions carried through the House in favour of open competition, and that the reply of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was almost the same reply that was given thirteen or fourteen years ago by the MR. GLADSTONE: I do not rise, late Sir George Lewis. When the Sir, for the purpose of adding anything present Premier pressed Sir George to the able statement of my right hon. Lewis at that time he asked for a delay Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, of one or two years-"Let us wait," he but I am very desirous of undeceiving said, "till we see how the principle of the House-and, I am persuaded, the open competition works in India." The hon. Member for Chelsea (Mr. Dilke) Chancellor of the Exchequer had shown himself-with regard to the nature of by a passage from the Queen's Speech, the discussion which took place upon this in 1854, the interest which was taken in subject in 1856, both as respects the this question by the right hon. Gentle- terms of the Motion the House was then man now at the head of the Government. called upon to adopt, and as respects the But, in 1856, a Resolution was moved by manner in which that Motion was met the present Lord President of the Coun- by the Government of the day. I would cil, seconded by the right hon. Baronet, remind the House to begin with that, as the Member for North Devon, and sup- my right hon. Friend has stated, many ported by the present Prime Minister, Members of the Government have dewhich, though not perhaps so sweeping clared opinions on this subject very much in its terms as the Resolution now before in the direction of the views held by the House, equally pressed the Govern- the hon. Member for Brighton (Mr. ment of that day to adopt the principle Fawcett). They have not altered those of open competition. If the statistics opinions; they are desirous to move forof the Civil Service Commission were ward in that direction, but they appeal looked into, however, it would be found to the House whether, during the four

Mann) was of opinion that they could not only effect that separation without difficulty, but that it would be better at once to adopt open competition with it. If the Motion went to a division he should vote with the hon. Member who brought it forward.

months they have held Office, they have been idle. The measures which have been submitted to this House have probably been as considerable as ever were submitted by a Government during a period equally short after their coming into Office; and if the House desires to have work well done, there must be some regard as to the quantity of it which is to be undertaken in a given time. The hon. Gentleman who has

just sat down is under the impression that the answer just given by my right hon. Friend is parallel to an answer given, in 1856, to a Motion which he thinks is parallel to the present one. have hastily referred to the Motion of that date in order to ascertain its terms, and I have also referred to the answer

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given by the Government on that occasion, and the answers are so different that I am sure the hon. Member himself was not at all aware of the amount of difference between them. You are called upon to-night to accede to a Resolution which states that all appointments-making no distinction of rank whatever-in the Civil and Diplomatic Services ought to be obtained by open competition, with no exceptions under any circumstances, and no discretion being left to the executive or to the heads of departments. Now, what was the Motion moved by my noble Friend Earl de Grey and Ripon in 1856. It was an Address to Her Majesty, rather a long one. I need not read the whole of it, but the operative part is as fol

lows:

"To assure Her Majesty of the steady support of this House in the prosecution of the salutary measures which She has been graciously pleased to adopt, and humbly to make known to Her Majesty that if She shall think fit further to extend them, and to make trial in the Civil Service of the method of open competition as a condition of entrance, this House will cheerfully provide for any charges which the adoption of that system may entail."—[3 Hansard, `clxi.]

I think that was a very moderate and judicious Motion, and I believe in saying that I am paying a compliment both to the Chancellor of the Exchequer and to myself, for unless I am much mistaken, we at the time had some hand in it.

But instead of being met on the part of the Government with a declaration that the Government concurred in the principle upon which the Motion was founded, as the hon. Gentlemen appears to think, I find, on referring to the speech of Sir George Lewis, that he

joined issue upon the principle itself. I find near the commencement of his speech upon this Motion the following sentence:—

"I wish to argue the question simply upon the ground of efficiency of the public service; whe ther the principle my noble Friend seeks to inof the Crown more efficient than it has been heretofore-that is the issue I wish to raise." Therefore, Sir George Lewis disputed the proposition of Viscount Goderich-as my noble Friend then was-that the principle of open competition was calculated to increase the efficiency of the Civil Service. It was under these circumstances that those who were friendly to the Motion were obliged to go forward with the discussion, and that the House carried by a majority of 21 the very moderate, cautious, and qualified Address which

troduce will or will not render the Civil Service

was then submitted to its consideration. Therefore I am bound to say, and I really think that the hon. Gentleman who has the circumstances of the former Motion just sat down will agree with me, that are, in every material point, as different as they can be from those of the present that the proposition which the House was asked to adopt was wholly different, and limited as it was, it was met with doubtedly-and I hope that what I am open opposition. about to say will not in any way be misunderstood-the arguments in favour of proceeding further in the direction of gained a material accession of force; open competion have, in my judgment, partly because the experience we have obtained of open competition, so far as I am qualified to judge of it, is of a favourable character, and partly on account of the important Act which was passed by the House of Commons last year, which placed the Members of this House in a much more direct political relation with the members of the Civil Service than they had ever occupied before. I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton and those who support him, as well as the whole House, naturally feel, after the Act has been passed which gives the franchise to the Civil Service at large, an increased anxiety for an alteration in those very direct relations which have heretofore subsisted between the Members of this House individually and the disposal of first admissions to the Civil Service. I mention that circumstance to-night as a matter that the Government are perfectly alive to, and which they will cer

Since that time un

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