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Government, whose duty it should be to many of whom took a growing interest
investigate their tables, to examine their in the debates of that House, and that
accounts, and see from time to time whe- they would be led, with time and in-
ther they stood on a firm basis. But creasing knowledge, more and more to
what the hon. Gentleman recommended adopt securer methods of providing
the Government to do on behalf of the against old age and evil days.
Friendly Societies it appeared to him
they could do without much trouble on
their own behalf. The case of the INCUMBERED ESTATES COURT (IRE-
Burial Societies was a very different one,

LAND)–EARL OF LANESBOROUGH'S and the hon. Gentleman had been more

ESTATE. QUESTION. successful in establishing the existence CAPTAIN ARCHDALL said, he rose to of a great evil—which, indeed, had been ask Mr. Attorney General for Ireland, If fully and repeatedly explained in Mr. his attention has been called to a recent Tidd Pratt's Annual Reports—than in decision of the Irish Court of Chancery suggesting a suitable remedy. It was on an Appeal arising out of a conveyance said the more ignorant portion of the of a portion of the estate of the Earl of working classes were the victims of de- Lanesborough to a Mrs. Catherine Reilly, signing men, who went about the coun- the purchaser of a portion of a neightry making attractive statements to them, bouring property sold in the Incumbered and inducing them to subscribe to so- Estates Court; and whether it is intended cieties which were, in fact, bubble insti- | to propose any amendment of the Law tutions; but the best remedy for that which sanctions the sale of incumbered esseemed to him to be the spread of greater tates in Ireland ? Every man who owned knowledge among the classes imme- an acre of land in Ireland was deeply diately concerned. Parliament could concerned in this matter, which was a hardly be asked to prohibit the existence glaring act of robbery perpetrated by the of those Burial Societies, although some Incumbered Estates Court. He would persons thought they contained the germs beg leave to read a statement of the of much mischief. The fact was there facts from a letter by the Hon. Cavendish were honest and dishonest societies. He Butler. In the year 1865, a portion of the did not know whether means could be estate of Loftus Tottenham, Esq., situfound for bringing the societies into a ated in the county of Fermanagh, was better condition, except by the one simple advertised for sale by the Landed Esmethod of publishing statements of their tates Court. As this estate was conaccounts, and thus enabling the working tiguous to the estate of the Earl of classes to obtain accurate knowledge of Lanesborough, in accordance with the the good and stable societies as distin- practice of the court, notice of the proguished from those which were of a bad posed sale, a rental, and copies of maps and bubble character. Hewould leave the of the estate, were submitted to the remedy, therefore, to time and education, agent to Lord Lanesborough, in order But if his hon. Friend were dissatisfied that he might satisfy himself of the corwith that and wished, at a proper oppor- rectness of the boundaries. No error tunity, to move for a Committee of Inquiry in this respect appearing on the face of into that question, no opposition to the the maps, the sale was allowed to proMotion would be offered by the Govern- ceed. À certain Catherine Reilly rented ment. The inquiry need not be a long a portion of the Tottenham estate, conone, and it would be a matter for re- taining 16 acres, 3 roods, 29 perches. joicing if its result should be to show At the sale she purchased the fee simple that Parliament, without infringing on of this land, which was separated from the laws. laid down for its general guid- the estate of the Earl of Lanesborough ance in dealing with such subjects, could by a deep ditch and a high quickset do something effectual to save the work- hedge. À Landed Estates Court title ing classes from the evils to which they was given to her, and nothing further were exposed. The hon. Gentleman de- transpired until the year 1867, two years served thanks for the able manner in after the purchase, when she claimed a which he had brought that question be- portion of Lord Lanesborough's profore the House, and he hoped that the perty, which was bounded on the one hon. Gentleman's statement would have side by the portion of land so purchased, due effect upon the working classes, and on the other by a public street in

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the town of Newtown Butler, and which said Catherine Reilly, still she was encontained 49 perches of ground, valuable titled to 49 perches of a property that for building purposes. This claim was, was never sold by the court, bought by of course, resisted, and eventually, as the claimant, or included in the quantity Mrs. Reilly threatened to take forcible specified by the said deed of conveyance. possession, an action for trespass was It appears, therefore, that no matter brought against her in the Court of what the quantity or nature of property Common Pleas. For the plaintiff the described in a deed of conveyance from above facts were stated. The Landed the Landed Estates Court, the map alone Estates Court proved that the defendant is to be considered the basis of the purpurchased and paid for only 16 acres, 3 chase; and the question was whether a roods, 29 perches, which were duly con- man's property could be conveyed to anveyed to her; that if the 49 perches now other, without his knowledge or consent, claimed were added to her purchase, she through the negligence or other default would become possessed of so much of some official? A portion of the estate more land than she had actually bid for, of the Earl of Lanesborough had been paid for, or ever had in her possession; so conveyed to the purchaser of a portion that the said 49 perches formed part of the of a neighbouring estate—no portion of estate of the Earl of Lanesborough, and the estate of the Earl of Lanesborough had been in possession of the family was mentioned in the deed of conveysince the original grant of the estate, ance—and the only grounds on which and that by no act of the present or late Catherine Reilly claimed the portion of proprietor had it been alienated. The Lord Lanesborough's estate, included in defendant, on the other hand, claimed the map, was that it was so included. under the conveyance made to her by The Attorney General for Ireland would the Landed Estates Court, which, al- probably remember that when Ahab though it only specified that it had sold appropriated the land of Naboth he reand thereby conveyed to her 16 acres, ceived a very severe punishment. If 3 roods, and 29 perches, still went on to the conduct of Ahab was bad, the consay that “the portion coloured red, de- duct of the Incumbered Estates Court fined on a map attached to said convey- was worse. Ahab gave notice to Naboth ance, was the land so conveyed.” A that he wanted the land, but the Indraughtsman attached to the Engineers' cumbered Estates Court gave Lord Office caused the red line alluded to to Lanesborough no notice whatever. The include a portion of Lord Lanesborough's land, it was true, was of small extent and estate, containing 49 perches of ground, value, but the question was one of prinand thus made Mrs. Reilly's purchase ciple, and Parliament ought to interfere 17 acres and 38 perches, and not 16 to prevent so gross an injustice. acres, 3 roods, and 29 perches, as stated THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR in the deed. Chief Justice Monaghan IRELAND (Mr. SULLIVAN) said, he held the title good and nonsuited the would not allude to the Scriptural illusplaintiff. Upon this, reference was tration just introduced, but would remind made to the Landed Estates Court for the House that when the Incumbered redress, and, upon the re-hearing of the Estates Court was founded in Ireland case before Judge Lynch, he, in an some twenty years ago it was thought to elaborate judgment, called upon said be of vital importance that every title Catherine Reilly to re-convey to trustees given by it should be indefeasible. He the said portion of ground thus impro- was perfectly familiar with the facts of perly claimed by her, with a view to its i the case, for it happened that he had restoration to its rightful owner, the been Counsel against Lord Lanesborough. Earl of Lanesborough. Against this de- The estate adjoining to Lord Lanescision Catherine Reilly appealed to the borough's property was sold in the InCourt of Chancery, who again reversed cumbered Estates Court, and, through a the decree of the Landed Estates Court, mistake on the part of an officer of the and held that the line defined by the Ordnance Survey, the strip of land in red paint was a good conveyance, and question belonging to his Lordship, and that, although Catherine Reilly acknow- forming an acute angle projecting from ledged, and the body of the deed affirmed, the mass of the property, was included that only 16 acres, 3

ods, and 29 in the conveyance, though the map perches were sold and paid for by the served on Lord Lanesborough, as an

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adjoining owner, showed this strip un- could recoup themselves by bringing an coloured. The mistake was to be re- action for damages against the person gretted, but he did not think it properly who had benefited by the mistake that described by the term "robbery. It had been made. should be remembered that during the operation of the court, which had con

Main Question, “That Mr. Speaker do veyed millions of property, these mis- now leave the Chair,” put, and agreed to. takes had been of the most trivial character, this being, perhaps about the SUPPLY-CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES. second or third which had been discovered. The remedy now suggested was an amendment of the law, but the

SUPPLY considered in Committee. only amendment that could be adopted

(In the Committee.) would have the effect of rendering the MR. AYRTON, in moving that a sum title disputable. Now, it would be little of £1,586,800 bé granted to Her Mashort of a national calamity if, on account jesty on account of those services, said, it of a mistake with regard to some 49 or would be desirable that he should re50 perches of land, the validity of titles deem the promise given by the Chancelunder the Incumbered Estates Court lor of the Exchequer when the hon. was impaired.

Member for Northamptonshire (Mr. MR. HUNT said, he knew nothing of Hunt) desired an explanation of the the case until he had just heard it ex- difference between a statement appearplained, but he must say it appeared to ing in a Paper on the table of the him that a flagrant robbery had been House and that made by the Chancellor committed. The right hon. and learned of the Exchequer in reference to the Gentleman admitted that there had been amount of these Estimates. The differa mistake, but pleaded that it was a small ence appeared to be that the Paper laid

Now, they had all heard of excuses on the table showed that the Civil Sermade by delinquents where the corpus vice Estimates for the present year exdelicti was a small one, and the excuse ceeded those of last year by £387,000; now offered was about on a par with that whereas, the Chancellor of the Excheof the female delinquent to whom he re- quer stated that the excess was only ferred. If the state of the law in Ireland £281,000. The difference between these was that, through the mistake of a Go- two statements was £106,000. The fact vernment officer, a man might be robbed was that the original Estimate had been of his land, and there was no mode of reduced by one item of £28,250. The correcting the error, it was the bounden Committee would also see that the Paper duty of the Government to see that a laid on the table only contained what change in the law was at once introduced. might be called the old Votes repeated

MR. TORRENS said, the Incumbered in the present year, and several suppleEstates Court had proved an inestimable mental and original Votes had been boon to Ireland, but its value would be omitted in the comparison, and those greatly impaired if any doubts were Votes amounted to £78,000. Therefore, thrown on the validity of the titles granted adding to that sum of £78,000 the other under it. At the same time, it would, amount of £28,250, it would be seen he thought, be possible to devise a re- that together they made the sum of medy for the injustice here pointed out. £106,000. He would now deal with the In Australia he had introduced a Bill for proposal to take the Vote on Account. In establishing a court similar to the Irish the first instance, it was intended to ask Incumbered Estates Court, and giving for a Vote on Account equal to four indefeasible titles; but there a small months' Supply; because, as there had percentage was levied upon the value of been considerable discussion as to the the land brought under the system, and best mode of conducting the business of out of the fund thus formed the persons that House in relation to the business of injured by such mischances as these re- the other House, it was thought desirceived compensation. This system of able to postpone until a late period of insurance, which fell very lightly on the Session that part of the business those resorting to the court, worked sa- which the other House would not retisfactorily. In addition to this there quire time to dispose of, in order that was a provision that the Government hon. Members might devote themselves

at an early period to the consideration the wish expressed by the House last of the business which it was desirable to Session would be carried into effect. send up to the House of Lords as soon The details of the present Vote on Acas possible. He ventured, therefore, to count were, as might be seen, spread suggest that they should not proceed over almost all the items in the Civil with the Civil Service Estimates until Service Estimates. In proposing a Vote the Bills now under consideration should on Account it was not usual to enter be disposed of; but he understood that upon these items in detail, the Vote some hon. Gentlemen thought that the being taken in a single sum. Therefore Government would gain some advantage the Committee need not examine them by taking a large Vote on Account. It in detail. Indeed, it would be impossiwas, however, a matter of indifference ble for hon. Members to do so, as the to the Government whether they took Civil Service Estimates were not yet laid the Vote for a shorter or a longer time; on the table. He therefore presumed for, if taken for a short time, the Go- that the usual course would be adhered vernment, when that period elapsed, to, of taking the Vote on the understandwould only have to take another ote ing that hon. Members reserved to themfor a further period, though that course selves the right of examining each of of proceeding might give trouble to the the items afterwards in Committee of permanent officers of the Department. Supply. He very much regretted that However, as some hon. Members did he had not been able to have the Civil not wish that the Government should Service Estimates printed and circulated take a Vote for a long time, he now by the present time; but, after keeping proposed to take a Vote for two months. back the present Vote to the last moIn taking this Vote, the Committee must ment, he now found himself compelled, understand it was not the intention of in consequence of the financial year haythe Government to embark under it ing expired, to propose it to the Comupon any new expenditure in respect to mittee. He might explain to such hon. which the Committee might desire to Members as were not conversant with express any opinion of their own, and the circumstances which rendered the the Vote on Account merely provided for present Vote necessary that in former the continuation of those services and times it was the practice to apply the works which had been sanctioned in the balances of old Votes to meet the expast year. Therefore, the Committee in penses at the beginning of the year sanctioning the Vote did not pledge until the new Estimates should be sancthemselves to any new undertaking, but tioned; but, under the system now in merely recognized the principle that the force, it was not lawful to apply those services were to be continued on the balances for the service of the new year footing on which they were left by the without the sanction of Parliament, but preceding Committee of Supply in last they must be paid into the Exchequer. year. His right hon. Friend the Chan- It was clear that if all the Civil Service cellor of the Exchequer stated to the Estimates could not be voted immeHouse yesterday the leading causes diately after the commencement of the which led to the increase of these Esti- new financial year, the inevitable result mates, and a considerable portion of the must be that a portion of them must be increase was only apparent and unsub- voted as was now proposed, on account. It stantial. The most important item of was equally obvious that it was impossiapparent increase was that for the Diplo- ble to proceed with the whole of the matic Service, which was changed from Votes at the present period of the Sesa permanent charge on the Consolidated sion, and the Committee would, thereFund to a Vote in Supply. A Bill to fore, he hoped, have no difficulty in carry this arrangement into effect would assenting to the proposal of the Governbe laid on the table of the House as ment, that a certain sum should be soon as the necessary details were set- granted to meet the wants of the service. tled. By that measure the power of the MR. HUNT: Sir, I will not allude to Crown to obtain money for the Diplo- the first observations of the hon. Genmatic Service out of the Consolidated tleman who has just spoken as to the Fund would be taken away, so that discrepancy between the statement of hereafter those charges must be met by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and Votes in a Committeo of Supply, and the Papers which have been placed in


our hands, because there will be an per issued on the 5th instant.” It is not, opportunity afforded of discussing that I may add, usual to raise discussions on point when the House comes to deal Votes on Account, and I should on this with the full Estimates in Committee of occasion follow that which is the usual Supply, I must, however, say that the course had it not been for peculiar ciroriginal proposition made by the Go- cumstances connected with two items in vernment to take Votes on Account for a these Estimates. The two items to period of four months seems to me to which I allude are those on the second require some comment. The hon. Gen- page of the Paper which I hold in my tleman has stated that it was of no im- hands. No. 10, the Vote for the Charity portance to the Government whether Commission, and No. 12, that for the they took Supply for four months or Copyhold, Inclosure, and Tithe Commisfor two. I cannot think that that is sion. Certain proceedings occurred last altogether the case. At all events that year in connection with those Votes to was not the view of the matter which which I wish to call the attention of the was taken by those who sit on the Committee. On the 24th of April, 1868, Ministerial Benches, when in Opposi- my hon. Friend the Member for Chiption last year.

Last year the late penham (Mr. Goldney) moved a ResoGovernment proposed to adopt the usual Iution as an Amendment to the Motion course, and to take a Vote on Account for going into Committee of Supply, in for a period of three months, but the following terms:we received an intimation from those

“ To leare out the word "That' to the end of who then sat upon these Benches that the Question, in order to add the words 'in tho they would object to the granting of opinion of this House the expenses of the CopySupply for more than six weeks. We, hold, Inclosure, and Tithe Commission, Inclosure desiring to have no controversy on the and Drainage Acts, and Charity Commission ought

not to be borne by the public.” point, consented to take Votes for only six weeks, but we found from the There was on that occasion a division, the Papers presented to the House, a few “Ayes” in favour of the words proposed days ago, that the Government, many of to be left out standing part of the question whose Members were opposed to our tak- being 104, and the "Noes” 105. The ing Supply for three months, proposed to consequence was that the next question take Votes for four months. Now, the put that the words of the Resolution practical consequence of voting money should be added to the word “that," for so long a period must be, as the hon. and the numbers were 'Ayes” 106; Gentleman knows, that the Estimates Noes,” 105. It fell to my lot to take would be hurried through the House at part in that debate, and I stated, in the fag end of the Session, when many reply to my hon. Friend the Member Members would be reduced to such a for Chippenham, that the Government state of lassitude that they would be un- were altogether in favour of the prinwilling to stay in London, and when, ciple of his Motion, but that they practically, the Government would have thought its terms required some qualivery much their own way. It is quite fication. I added that, while right that the Government should have curring with him in the opinion that supplies to go on with, but then they the proceedings for the greater part in should not be allowed, in my opinion, to those cases ought to be carried out at have them for so long a time as to leave the expense of the parties interested, the discussion of the Estimates practically yet we looked upon the measure which he in the hands of official Members. Cer- proposed as so sweeping that there

. tainly the Opposition of last year took a would be considerable difficulty in givvery stringent view of their rights in this ing it effect. I therefore suggested that matter, and I was, therefore, all the the word "entirely" should be inserted more unprepared for the course they in his Resolution before the word have taken now they are in power. We, “borne,” thus binding the Government of the Opposition, made a suggestion to to the view that the expense ought not the Government; the consequence of to be entirely borne by the public. My which was that another Paper was placed hon. Friend, however, at the instigation in our hands, with a little slip pasted on of the present First Lord of the Admiit, with the statement, “It is requested ralty, the President of the Poor Law that this may be substituted for the Pa- Board, and others who now sit on the


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