he should not simply say that he acceded to the proposition, but that he should, by a strong exercise of his own will, give effect to it, because unless he did this it would not be carried out by commanding officers. He was certain that if some system of this sort were carried out, the condition of the army and the character of the soldier, in all the higher senses of the term, would be improved.

I believe the organization of the armies [press upon his right hon. Friend the of all foreign nations has, during the present Secretary of State for War that last few years, advanced by rapid strides: it must not be that England should be left behind in the race. Sooner or later the strife must come, and the result must depend on the general aptitude of our armies for the emergencies of war; the clinging to a system of machinemade troops not in harmony with the age will not avail us in time of need. Let us, then, in this period of peace, by timely and judicious and systematic reforms, lead our men to a better general acquaintance with the structural duties of the Service; and by so doing, I am confident we shall effect vast economy in our expenditure, and proportionally increase the efficiency of our armies. The hon. Member then moved the Amendment.

Amendment proposed,

To leave out from the word "That" to the

end of the Question, in order to add the words "in the opinion of this House, an authorized orsystem of Military labour to Military works' to ganization should be adopted for extending the all stations of Her Majesty's Army," — (Mr. Hanbury-Tracy,)

-instead thereof.

from the opposition of officers. Another difficulty to be got over was the financial one. When Engineer officers were not available to superintend the labour of soldiers, it was in many instances cheaper to employ contract labour.

MR. HEADLAM, in seconding the Motion, said, his hon. Friend (Mr. Question proposed, "That the words Hanbury Tracy) had done exceedingly proposed to be left out stand part of the good service by bringing the subject Question." before the House. He (Mr. Headlam) GENERAL PERCY HERBERT said, had long entertained a strong opinion he rose to prevent the House assuming that soldiers might be employed, very that the difficulty in the way of the embeneficially to themselves and the pub-ployment of soldiers arose exclusively lic, upon such works as had been indicated. He did not wish to enter into the economical part of the question; his hon. Friend had shown that a great saving would be effected by the employment of soldiers. But his own experience as Judge Advocate General en- MR. CARDWELL said, he need not abled him to say that many of the crimes assure the House of the entire sympathy which soldiers were guilty of arose in with which he regarded the Motion of reality from lack of employment. He his hon. Friend (Mr. Hanbury Tracy). believed that if they had the oppor- There could be no doubt that everytunity of earning an honest penny, they thing which diminished idleness among would be better soldiers and better men, soldiers was a boon, seeing that in the and would avoid many heavy punish- army, as out of it, idleness was a fruitments which were now inflicted. He ful source of evil. Anything which inbelieved the House was scarcely aware creased the pay of the soldier, and enof the long terms of punishment to which abled him to add to his comfort, and soldiers were subjected for various crimes that of his family, if he had one, and and offences against military discipline; anything which broke down the barrier and if they could be saved from the between military and civil life, and gave commission of these crimes, that in it- the soldier participation and interest in self, independently of any economical the pursuits of those by whom he was advantage, would be a great and ma- surrounded, must have a beneficial effect. terial benefit. This subject had been Another signal benefit which might be brought forward previously-at least in expected to follow from the introduction the other House-and there had always of soldier labour was the enlistment of been a perfect concession of the truth of artificers who, entering at an early the arguments; but somehow the mili- period of life, might look forward to tary authorities had always neglected returning to civil life, and resuming the to carry their professed opinions into employment to which they had been acpractice. He therefore wished to im- customed, particularly if the term of

service were shortened, as he hoped it would be. All these advantages recommended the Motion to the favour of the House, and he should be happy to promote any organization which would attain the desired result; but he would caution his hon. Friend not to forget that in the army you must depend on commanding officers, as it was through them the organization must be carried into effect. When men were separated from the army and given work to do, it was the commanding officer who was responsible for maintaining discipline and preventing undue pressure being put on the other men who were engaged in ordinary regimental duties. It might materially impair discipline and do serious injury to the army if the commanding officers were in any way ignored in this matter. When large savings were spoken of to be effected by this mode of industry, it must be remembered that superintendence had to be provided, and he did not think that in the statistics quoted anything was reckoned for this superintendence. They could only obtain superintendence when they had Engineer officers at their command. Then, again, much must depend

upon

Of

the effect on the men's characters was
most excellent. The money earned was
mostly spent on their families, where
they had families, and some had accu-
mulated considerable sums in the sav-
ings bank. He had the pleasure of
telling his hon. Friend, that in the recent
barrack regulations, arrangements had
been made for the barrack repairs to be
executed, as far as possible, by the men
themselves, under the direction of the
Royal Engineers. In communicating
the information contained in the Re-
turns to the Commander-in-Chief, he
had expressed his wish that the atten-
tion of commanding officers should be
drawn by a circular to the good result-
ing from the system, and that regiments
might be moved as little as possible in
cases where they had been tolerably
successful in obtaining useful work on
their station. He therefore hoped his
hon. Friend would be satisfied that the
military authorities were alive to the
importance of the subject, and fully
desirous of extending the system as far
as practicable.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker

SUPPLY-ARMY ESTIMATES.
SUPPLY-considered in Committee.

the number of men in a regiment do now leave the Chair," put, and who were trained for the particular ser- agreed to. vice to which it was desired to put them, and upon their aptitude for it. course, if a contractor were doing any given work it would be for him to say what labour should be employed. He had presented a Return to the House, from which hon. Members would find that there had been no indisposition

(In the Committee.)

(1.) £460,800, Clothing Establishments, Services, and Supplies.

(2.) £512,900, Barrack Establish

(3.) £43,800, Divine Service.
(4.) £2,000, Martial Law.

lately to prosecute this system. Atments, Services, and Supplies. Portsmouth, the average numbers of men employed were civilians, 67; soldiers, 29; at Woolwich-civilians, SIR ROBERT ANSTRUTHER said, 35; soldiers, 108; at the Curragh Camp he thought it was high time that the -civilians, 24; soldiers, 53. The Con- attention of the Committee should be troller had received a letter from Colo-drawn to the degrading practice of brandnel Meredith reporting the results of the system as tried at Parkhurst. The Colonel stated that the men having been selected and classified in trades, they were sent to the shops, and received 18. 3d. a day if they worked as artificers, and 9d. if as labourers. In some cases the pay was increased. The hours of labour were eight hours in winter and ten in summer, and the men were paid for overtime. The work was very popular among the men, and though it had been only carried on for a short time,

ing deserters with the letter "D." He should like to ask the Secretary of State for War, whether it was not contrary to the Articles of War, which specified the place where a man should be branded, to mark him more than once? If soldiers were subjected to the disgraceful punishment, how could it be expected that respectable men would enlist? Men deserting from the police were not branded; and admission to the force was at a premium. It was held to be disgraceful among the men of the police force to be

would be better to run the risk of a certain percentage of deserters.

dismissed; why, then, should it not be so in the army? Since the House had abolished flogging it would not long tolerate the far more barbarous practice of branding. Was it just to mark a man indelibly for an offence committed oftentimes from momentary impulse?

MR. BUXTON said, he believed that the only effectual cure for desertion was to make the Queen's service as attractive as possible. There was no real reason why the army should be the only service which men were forced to enter, especially as it might, without much difficulty, be made the most attractive service in the country.

COLONEL NORTH said, he entirely differed from the hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Anstruther). Branding was necessary as a precaution. Formerly the man who had been punished carried the MR. GUEST said, that the term marks of the cat upon his back, but now "branding" was quite a misnomer in flogging had been done away with. It the case. The operation was known to was absolutely necessary that something the doctors as cupping. In reality, it should be done to prevent a deserter de- mplied nothing more than the tattooceiving the country by a second enlist-ing to which nearly all sailors voment. It had been stated, on more than luntarily submitted. There was one occasion in that House, that desertion branding with a hot iron. The practice was becoming a regular trade, and an was necessary as a precaution against instance had been given of one man who fraud an evil against which photohad deserted no less than thirteen times. graphy, while being very expensive, It was necessary to have some means by could afford no protection whatever. which they could prevent men, who from VISCOUNT BURY, in answer to the their appearance frequently seemed to be remarks of the hon. Member for Surrey likely to make good soldiers, from re-(Mr. Buxton), said, that to make the enlisting after desertion. Unless they

could devise some such means there was nothing to prevent such blackguards from enlisting in all the regiments in the British army. It was all very well for hon. Gentlemen to get up in that House and talk about degrading the soldier; but the opponents to the present system ought to be prepared to recommend some equally efficacious means of preventing re-enlistment after desertion. LORD ELCHO said, that the idea of branding human beings as one would brand cattle was most repulsive. The practice appeared to be a relic of past times, of times such as those of Charles II. -a very pious monarch-when the Mutiny Act of the day contained a provision that any soldier speaking disrespectfully of the doctrine of the Trinity or swearing should be liable to have his tongue bored through with a hot iron. The question which the House would shortly have to consider was not whether men should be branded several times, but whether that punishment should be inflicted at all. Even burglars were not branded. He believed that desertion might be prevented as well as it was under the present system by resorting to photography, which had been found of so much use in enabling the police to recognize offenders against the law. If, however, no other remedy could be devised, he thought it

no

army more attractive would be to make it worth the while of dishonest men to enter the service for the sake of deserting it. It would be impossible for commanding officers from mere photographs to pick out men who had deserted or been dismissed for bad conduct, and prevent them from joining the ranks. There appeared to be an idea that this branding was similar to the branding of cattle; whereas in reality it was nothing more than pricking the flesh with a needle and rubbing in some gunpowder. Almost every sailor in Her Majesty's fleet bore similar marks, and if a sailor rolled up his shirt sleeves he generally disclosed the initials of his own name and of the name of at least one of his ladyloves. Of course, it might be said that marking with a "D" was a sign of disgrace, but the disgrace was not to be inflicted unless it was deserved. He certainly thought we ought to retain one means by which we could prevent deserters from attempting to enlist in other regiments.

LORD GARLIES said, that it was at the discretion of the courts-martial, and not imperative upon them, to order a prisoner to be marked in this way, and the punishment was frequently, in the case of young and inexperienced soldiers, withheld, in the hope that the leniency exhibited might be attended

with beneficial effects. Nor was it for Truro (Captain Vivian), who was a necessary to imprint another "D" on de- Member of the Commission, he came to serters upon a fresh conviction.

men.

the conclusion that it would be premature MR. CARNEGIE said, that the effect to do so, not from the slightest unwilof this system was to deter good men lingness to give effect to the Report of from enlisting. The punishment ought the Commission, but for these reasonsto be abolished altogether, and com- In their first Report the Commissioners manding officers ought to have the power recommended many alterations in the of discharging bad characters. Any mode of punishment which would diloss thus sustained would be fully made minish the number of imprisonments, up by the enlistment of a better class of substituting fines; for example, for drunkenness, which was the fertile mother of all imprisonments. It was thus highly probable that the number of imprisonments might be diminished. Then the contemplated reduction in the number of men might lead to the disappearance of the most frequent inhabitants of the military prisons. And, lastly, he thought it better to wait until the final Report of the Commission had been presented, together with the evidence, so that Parliament might be fully informed upon the whole subject.

MR. CARDWELL said, he hoped that the day had gone by when desertion was or would be anything like what it was when he first entered Parliament. There were now excellent candidates for admission into the service, and he hoped to see the day when marking would be altogether abolished. The history of the question was this-At one time an enormous system of fraud was practised by men who enlisted first in one regiment of the army, then in the Militia, and who went from one regiment to another. Such was the loss occasioned to the public in this way that, in 1844, Parliament altered the Mutiny Act, and -he would not enter now upon the legal question-appeared to make it more stringent. His opinion had been asked, not upon the legal question, but whether marking should be regarded as a proper punishment. His answer was clearhe did not think it ought. It was not meant to be inflicted as a punishment, but for the prevention of fraud; so that the second infliction of it was wrong, and he felt no doubt that His Royal Highness the Commander-in-Chief would be of the same opinion.

COLONEL NORTH asked whether any steps had been taken to carry out the recommendation of the Royal Commission on Military Punishments, who had suggested the establishment of a central military prison, and whether there was any foundation for the statement that crime in the army was on the increase?

MR. CARDWELL said, that one of the first questions which came before him on taking Office was the first Report of the Commission upon this subject, and he had been very desirous of putting into the Estimates of the present year a sum of money for the purpose of carrying into effect the recommendation as to the central prison. Upon consultation, however, with Colonel Henderson and his hon. Friend the Member

COLONEL WILSON-PATTEN said, the Commission had presented their first Report because they thought that the Government should be put in possession of their opinion that, consequent upon the abolition of corporal punishment in the army, it was necessary that some system of severer punishments should be adopted in order to prevent crimes that were likely to prevail. The Commission, among other things, had recommended the infliction of severer punishments than could be inflicted under the present prison system, and for that reason they had suggested the building of a new central prison. He hoped this suggestion would be carried out without delay. At the present moment, there was scarcely a military prison where punishment could be inflicted according to the mode recommended by the Commission. The recommendation of the Commission should be carried out as soon as possible, for since the abolition of corporal punishment certain crimes, such as insubordination, had increased. He would, therefore, suggest to the Secretary of State for War that, under these circumstancės, the civil prisons throughout the country should be made available for military punishments until the prison referred to could be built.

MR. OTWAY said, he was surprised at the statement that crime had increased in the army since the abolition of corporal punishment. He had heard nothing