Mr. Sawyer. Shall any member here undertake to know what the lords do? You have only the bare information of this matter before you of one member of this house, and no more. He is much afraid to give countenance to things of this nature. One book now abroad concerns us. It calls us 'traytors and rebels for meeting as a parliament,' and either house may enquire into such incendiaries. You passed the same sentence upon Mr. Howard, the last session; he would not say he did or did not write the letter, and you took it, pro confesso, and committed him to the Tower.* Lord Cavendish. If this be a crime against the government, as is alledged, he would know whether the lords can judge it without a jury. Mr. Sawyer. Invading our privileges, is invading the government, and such matters may be tried in either house, and this matter more especially in the lords house. Other courts may be timorous. In point of law you punish no man but as he offends against the govern ment. Sir Wm. Coventry will not contend matter of law with Sawyer, but would enter his claim, that we do not take ourselves to be part of the government, for then the government is no monarchy. We are only a part of the legislature; and would enter his claim against any such doctrine to be delivered here. Mr. Sawyer. Explains himself. He acknowedges judgment and legislature, &c. Sir Wm. Coventry takes the government to be as much, and more the ministerial part, as the legislature. The Speaker. No cognizance can be taken of the lords proccedings unless they come regularly before you. It is the first instance of this kind. You judge them in their judicature of what is not before you. You may do it to any part of their judicature, as well as this. You may else raise what you cannot lay. But he is always for the privilege of this house. Sir Tho. Lee remembers one man (Fitton) punished by the lords for making application to this house. It is a proper and regular way, and this matter may be brought before you by information of a member, as well as by petition from the party grieved. The question is not about the crime, but whether Dr. Cary be regularly brought to punishment. Here a man is committed without impeachment; you are the jury, and all men ought to be tried per pares. He thinks this properly represented to you, and would farther consider of it. Sir H. Goodrick. In this matter we are under so great a restraint, that he knows not how we shall deliver ourselves. The eyes and prayers of the country are that we may have no difference with the lords. But when he considers the cries of the people, and the king's advice to us, in his Speech, not to entertain differences with the lords, and that it is not a time of day to do it, they that press this, he declares, are no friends to the good of the na * See p. 770. tion: explains what he has said, and will make it good. But submits it to the judgment of the house, and farther, whoever proceeds so is no friend to the nation. He has thought of it, and hopes to make it good. Lord Cavendish. Is sorry to hear so great a reflection from Goodrick upon all gentlemen concerned in this debate, and upon himself who brought the debate in. No gentlemen that debated this but are as good friends to the nation,' and would not proceed, as little as Goodrick, to a difference with the lords; and must say, That from Goodrick was an indiscreet expression. He was taken down to Order. Col. Birch. By order of the house, the words whereby lord Cavendish was offended must be written down, and asserted. Thinks that Goodrick said, they that press this business are no friends to the nation.' Sir Philip Harcourt. The business is of a great nature, and he would have you, Mr. Speaker, declare, by order, whether the words are not to be asserted, and written down, before any explanation be admitted of them. Mr. Garroway. Goodrick owned his words, and brought them to his own explanation. Your order is, those words that gave exception ought to be written down,' and you debate whether those words were said, or not. He believes Goodrick will so explain himself as to give you satisfaction. Serj. Maynard apprehends the words were very bad, but let them be what they will, if you go to censure the person for the words, they must be written down. It was his own case twice, long ago, but he had liberty first to explain himself: for a man may sometimes outgo himself, and it may be every man's case. Sir H. Goodrick. He is ready to give satis faction to the house, and every particular membcr. He intended no reflection upon any gentleman. His words were: He that promoted this difference betwixt the lords and us was an enemy to the nation.' That was his intention, whatever were his words. Sir Tho. Meres doubts that the words were otherwise, but would have them accepted as the gentlemen says he intended them. He would have us all bear with one another. We have always borne with the interpretation of the man that spoke the words, and without doubt, he is no friend to the nation, that promotes differences between the lords, and us.' But to go on, he believes that lord Cavendish brings the Order for Dr. Cary's com mitment, by the lords, regularly before you; it is by the very same method as you went in sit John Fagg's case. You were informed of it by a member then, and no otherwise, and the farther consideration thereof was adjourned till Monday. To-morrow is the day appointed to consider of grievances; and this is the greatest. No man herc, he believes, values Dr. Cary in prison, neither the man nor the punishment; but the manner of laying the punishment is This what we have reason to except against. Sir Wm. Coventry. What he heard Goodrick speak was, That they are no friends.to the nation that promote a difference between the lords and us.' We have great reason, in these cases, to give grains of allowance to one another. In ancient times but a few persons spoke in the house, and their speeches were ready penned. The powder and shot was ready made up in cartridges; ready cut and dried, and a man had then time to think; but now we speak on a sudden, and therefore would have some grains of allowance given. Lord Burleigh* thinks that Goodrick's words particularly reflected upon lord Cavendish,t and would have them set down. Sir Henry Goodrick. He should speak much against both his obligations and judgment, if he intended lord Cavendish, in what he said, or any other gentleman, in particular. Sir Tho. Meres is glad that an end is made of this matter, as to lord Cavendish, who, he thinks, has satisfaction from Goodrick. But he would consider the manner of this judgment (upon Dr. Cary) of the lords, on a commoner. We ought to have as great and as good a privilege as the lords, but would not go on this, without being extremely clear, and perhaps we may find out more privilege than we know of already. Will press no question, but that the matter stands fair for another consideration. privileges. No man will think so irreverently of the king. And you, Mr. Speaker, may go out of the chair without any question, in this matter, and he will move it again when we are better informed.* Debate on a Bill to repeal the Statute of Wages to Members of Parliament.] March 3. Sir Harbottle Grimstone, (Master of the Rolls) moved, that he might have leave to bring in a Bill for the Indemnifying the Counties, Cities and Boroughs from paying any Wages now due to Members that serve in Parliament, and desired it might be in particular for Colchester, the place he serves for. For a writ had gone down from sir John Shaw, (his fellow burgess) to receive his wages for service done in parliament.† Mr. Williams. The statute of limitations will cut off all the Wages, but of the last six years. He is against removing old land marks: what is an evidence betwixt man and man, electors and elected, he would not remove. He is not for imposing any thing upon corporations; he will trust his own corporation, but not every little borough. The Wages will not be due for a whole year, but for the days only that we sit here. He would trust the generosity of the members, in this of their Wages, and not have a bill for it. He has already released his wages. Mr. Powle. The statute of limitations cuts not off a debt, but from six years after it is due; and this is not due till the parliament is ended, and therefore not cut off by that statute. Williams says, 'That wages are not due but for the days you sit here.' But for those that come from Cumberland, and such Serj. Maynard. If there be public breaches remote places, they have had sometimes 14 days on the liberty of the people, it is not strange allowed them, and to all the members, moto enquire into them. He fears this cominit- rando, redeundo, eundo. And if wages be ment of Dr. Cary has raised more dust than demanded accordingly, it will ruin many poor can be laid, He must come into a court boroughs. We are now estimated to have sat where he may be indicted, and no man must in this parliament 3000 days, which will be be accused but by writ from some of the 600l. and the question is, whether Wages are king's courts.' It will be one question, Whe- not due in prorogations, as well as adjournther Dr. Cary has offended before the parliaments. For the ill use that may be made of ment sat, or since; in or out of parliament? if a man be brought here for words spoken against this house, will not you commit him? if a man contemns any court, that court may fine any man. If the matter will hold you may go on, else it is very ill thing to contend in this matter. If he be committed for contempt of an order, see what it is; and then consider whether you will go through or not. Mr. Garroway. If Dr. Cary be committed for contempt indefinite, and we desire to know the cause from the lords, and they tell you it is for a breach of their privilege, then there is an end of it. The king, in what he said of avoiding controversy with the lords, never intended thereby to cut you off from your just Son of the earl of Exeter, to which title he succeeded, on his father's death, in 1687. He died in France in 1700; † He married lord Cavendish's sister. this, when this parliament is at an end, he would have wages cut off. For debts, when they are grown old, are very heavy when paid, and consider how we load them now by this tax we have granted. But he would have this discharge of Wages for no more than what is already incurred, and not forward. Mr. Sawyer. You have been offered the statute of limitations. That of Wages is not an action, but in the nature of a judicial writ, unto which the statute of limitation is not to be pleaded, being matter of record. Some wages have been already paid, and some persons are but lately come in. But he looks upon it for * There is no mention of this debate in the Journal. † Andrew Marvell, who was member for Kingston upon Hull, is said to have been the last who received these wages. the honour of the house, that, where wages nave not been received, we may imitate the statute of limitations; excepting the two last years. Mr. Boscawen knows not why Sawyer, that has been here but two years, should give away his wages that has been here 16 years. It is generally promised at elections, in boroughs, to serve freely, and why an act should not be to confirm those promises, he knows not. He thinks it worthy your consideration to put the boroughs out of fear. For hereafter they will chuse their own burgesses, blue aprons, and gentlemen no more. Mr. Finch is not for this bill, though thus magnified to you. All Wages are limited to eundo, morando, redeundo, and expressly limited by the writ to levy it. By 6 H. viii. No person that departs from parliament without leave of the Speaker and house, entered first into the Journal, shall have his Wages.' And Prynne's Register of Writs goes so far as to prove attendance here every daybut by this bill you take away from every gentleman an opportunity of obliging his corpora tion. Mr. Love. He never received any Wages from the city, nor demanded any, because he thinks he never deserved any at their hands. A Bill was ordered to be brought in accordingly. Sir Tho. Strickland expelled.] March 6. Sir Tho. Strickland sent a Letter to the Speaker, in answer to the notice which the Speaker had sent him by Order of the house, (p. 835) by way of excuse for his non-attendance in parliament, &c. Resolved, "That whereas it doth appear to this house, that sir Tho. Strickland, a member of this house, is convicted upon record of Popish Recusancy, that he be from henceforth disabled from being any longer a member of this house." And a new writ was ordered for Westmoreland. Debate on the Bill to repeal the Statute of Wages to Members of Parliament, resumed.] March 13. The Bill for releasing the Counties, &c. from all Wages due to Members, &c. was read the first time. Mr. Powle. Now there is so great an arrear run into by boroughs to their burgesses, that the payment will be inconvenient to many, and will ruin some; and may have such an influence that if the borough will not make such a man an officer, or chuse such a man member, &c. they will sue them for Wages, and so they may be subjected to particular persons. Sir John Birkenhead. It is dishonourable in the house to do this, when no petition is sent from any borough to desire it, representing it as prejudicial to them. Let them that desire it have that self-denying ordinance, boroughs complaining not of it. The best remedy for the fears of the boroughs is, for every man to forgive the Wages they owe him. The loss of wages is the only punishment the law has made for the absence of parliament-men from their attendance. He fears there is a worse end in it, that men should be posted who are against the bill. We may, by the next post, oblige our boroughs, by a letter, to release wages, without this bill, and, he supposes that unless we demand wages by a writ, after the session is over, we cannot have it. Sir Tho. Meres. There is a jealousy that you will take wages, if you throw the bill out, and it will be very ill taken by those you represent. Mr. Crouch. He never received wages for the place he serves for, and never will: but the bill is not fit to pass. Will you take away any man's land? Why will you take away his wages? Sir Philip Warwick moves that as many gentlemen as will may release their wages. Sir Rd. Temple. It is a reflection on the house, to discharge the wages by law; but he would have it a free-will offering. Mr. Swynfin. If you think of casting this bill out, then he would have a bill brought in to make a law that Wages shall be taken. He is sure, now the thing is here in question, it will put such an awe upon corporations, for fear of having wages called for, who never thought of it before, that he thinks it a point of honesty in the house to declare they will not call for wages from the corporations, who else would be so universally deceived in so much expectation they should not pay wages. If we should now lay aside this bill, it would be scarce honourable, or honest. These 80 or 100 years wages have been scarce received, and now, that, for 14 years and upwards, members have not called for any, this is an intimation between man and man that they will never call for it. As if no rent has been paid for 80 years, and now we will fall on with all that weight. It is an implied promise, that they will not be called for, and that they are forgiven; and the throwing out the bill will revive a jealousy that they will be demanded. That which obliges corporations, in this, must oblige as the king's act, by act of grace, by taking away the punishment of penal laws. You would take it as a danger, if asked and denied. Sir Tho. Lee knows not how long the parlia ment will last, and he knows not how his exe cutors will deal with the borough he serves for, when he is dead; and therefore he is for the bill. Mr. Waller. By this bill, we ask the lords leave to be bountiful to the people; by making it a law, we do it. We have ordered money for the servants here that attend us: he had rather forty times give it to the boroughs, tham ask the lords leave. Some in the house are so poor, and some of the boroughs, so rich, that to force men not to take Wages would not be equal justice. Address to the King on the Growth of the power of France.] March 15. Both houses presented the following Address to his majesty: May it please your majesty; we your inajesty most loyal subjects, the lords spiritual and temporal, and the knights, citizens, and burgesses, in parliament assembled, find ourselves obliged, in duty and faithfulness to your majesty, and in discharge of the trust reposed in us by those whom we represent, most humbly to offer to your majesty's serious consideration, That the minds of your majesty's people are much disquieted, with the manifest danger arising to your majesty's kingdoms by the Growth and Power of the French king, especially by the acquisitions already made, and the further progress likely to be made by him, in the Spanish Netherlands; in the preservation and security whereof, we humbly conceive, the interest of your maj. and the safety of your people are highly concerned. And therefore we most humbly beseech your maj. to take the same into your royal care and to strengthen yourself with such stricter alliances as may secure your majesty's kingdoms, and preserve and secure the said Netherlands, and thereby quiet the minds of your majesty's people." the back side of the Petition was read, viz. You are to take into your custody John Harrington, for suspicious practices, &c.' Mr. Sec. Williamson. The ground of this the same things: his view was to have them examined at the bar of the house, when time should serve; and, in the mean while, fearing that endeavours might be used to corrupt them, he carried them to a master in Chancery, who took their depositions upon oath. This was scarce done, before he was seized by a messenger, carried before the king and council, and accused of suborning those Scotsmen to disturb his majesty's government. While under examination, he was not well treated by the lord chancellor (these are his own words) and extremely ill by the lord treasurer; and, upon the issue, was committed close prisoner to the Tower (the cause assigned in the warrant being for Subornation of Perjury, tending to the defamation of his maj, and his government; and for contemptuously declaring, he would not answer his majesty any question, which his majesty, or his privy council, should ask him); debarred the use of pen and ink, the access of his friends, confined in such a place over the Tower ditch, as threw him into a dangerous sickness; and denied the assistance of either physician or divine: after all this, he made a hard shift to get a Petition presented to the house of commons; which produced an order for his being brought before the house; before whom he gave a clear account of the whole matter, and of his behaviour at the council-board.-But of the two Debate on Mr. Harrington's Commitment by Scots soldiers, the one made himself perjured, the Council.] March 16. Mr. Sacheverell without being suborned by Harrington; denypresented a Petition, subscribed John Har-ing, or misrepresenting to the house, what he rington'. The warrant of Commitment on The King's Answer.] To the above Address the king gave the following Answer: "That he is of the same opinion with his two houses of parliament, that the conservation of Flanders is of great importance to England; and that therefore he assured them, that he will take all the care for the preservation of Flanders that can possibly consist with the peace and safety of the kingdom. "One Mr. Harrington, the son of a Cavalier who bad suffered much in the royal cause, while the house was sitting, happened to meet with two Scotchmen, returned from abroad, who complained, that they had been pressed out of Scotland into the French king's service; and that there were several hundreds of their countrymen, as well as themselves, who had been forced from their houses, wives and families, bound together; and so, like galley-slaves, secured in the public gaols; their friends and relations not being suffered to come near them; and from thence put on shipboard, and transported into the service of France, contrary to the Addresses of parliament, his majesty's Answers thereunto, proclamation thereupon, and, what is of more authority than all, the privilege of nature itself; that exempts every man alike, from being forced into a danger, in which he has no concern. Mr. Harrington was touched with their case, and thinking himself happy in an opportunity that bid fair to put a stop to those supplies which were sent almost daily to France,brought these Scotsmen to several members of parliament, to whom they evidenced had sworn formerly: and the other, the honester fellow it seems of the two, only absented. However, divers members of that house attested voluntarily, that the soldiers had affirmed the same thing to them: and indeed the truth of that matter became notorious, by several other soldiers that came over afterwards, and by further account from Scotland. Mr. Harrington also carried himself towards the house with so much modesty, that it seemed inseparable from him; so that a disposition appeared in the members to have concerned themselves for his liberty; when Mr. Secretary Williamson stood up, having been a principal instrument in committing him, and, because the other crimes rather deserved thanks and commendation, and the warrant would not justify itself, he insisted upon his strange demeanour towards his majesty; deciphered his very looks, says Mr. Marvell; and but that his majesty and the house remained still living flesh and blood, it might have been imagined, by his discourse, that Mr. Harrington had the head of a Gorgon. But this story so wrought with, and amazed the commons, that the prisoner found no redress, but might thank God that he escaped again into close prison." Ralph. proceeding against Harrington was, an Oath by one Harriot, Leminon, and Murray, Scotchmen, at the instigation of Fonseca, (the Spanish ambassador's secretary) who had engaged Hariot, &c. to the utmost disturbance of the government, to create jealousy between the king and this house, clandestinely seeking out inforinations from Scotland. Harriot he found out, and examined him upon oath. The purport was this: Harriot was one of the 500 men carried into Ostend, by one of their frigates, where he was not willing to serve, but was put in mind, that if he would pass into England, he should have his liberty. He got an address to Fonseca, and this Harrington was to have the care of him, and gave him money; but took care to ask him about men pressed in Scot and, and other transactions there, and took notes; which Harrington transcribed fair, and took him to a master in chancery, where he swore to that paper, though he never read it. But he said to the master in chancery' he had read it,' but to him (Williamson) he deposed otherwise. This fellow said, he swore not conjointly what the other deposed, but for himself only, and not to the cutting off ears.' Says Harrington, I will get money for you to go thither: that will be good news to duke Hamilton.' This practice was so indirect, and by Harrington's carriage at the council, he appeared to be the most grown young man in his impudence, and he believes, in his loyalty: he stands committed for contempt: he used that style, that air, and mien to the king, as it may be so I will answer you no more' and the king said, I will ask you no more.' and for this he was committed by the lords of the Council's order. Mr. Garroway rises not up to justify Harrington's deportment to the king, but he has heard that the last day the committee of grievances sat, these people waited at the door to tell you what they petition now, and, he believes, Williamson will tell you what is become of Harriot, &c. now not to be found; taken out of his lodgings: would ask Williamson about the commitment being brought hither to give evidence. Mr. Sec. Williamson. He never saw him, since the deposition in his house. Harrington said to Harriot, go off; what you have said may cost you your own ears.' Sir Tho. Lee. Williamson tells you of ' oath made of seditious practices.' Harrington brought them to be examined about men pressed, contrary to the king's proclamation. Harriot informed a master in chancery of it upon oath, and was not committed for contempt of the king. See now, the crime is to go to a master in chancery, before the king, and he is committed to a messenger before he was brought to the king, and there as a criminal, and asked questions, and he would not inform against himself. This, it seems, is unmannerly' and 'sedition.' No wonder we have so little account of Miscarriages, when things are thus managed in Council. Mr.Sec. Williamson. His commitment was for going where he ought not to go, in matters of state, to give information, which belongs not to a master in chancery to examine. He should have come to those whom he ought. He wants breeding indeed, the best part of breeding, that of the mind, but for the other, he is a well fashioned man, Lord Cavendish is far from excusing any man that has failed in good manners to the king; but he hears nothing alledged against his deportment at the lords of the Council 'but his looks, air, and mien.' Nothing apparent against him, but that he is unwilling to answer against himself. Williamson said, he was committed for carrying men to depose before a master in chancery, in matters of state, before he came to the king's council;' which he might justify, the parliament sitting; especially apprehending that some of the king's council are highly guilty of what we are about to remedy. Sir Francis Winnington. He attended the Council when Harrington was brought. He observes, that the weight of exception is put upon it; that he was committed that so he might be prevented coming here to inform you. If he knows the matter of fact, it is his duty to acquaint you with it. Harrington, with another, was summoned to attend the Counci and came. Harrington was fairly asked questions about disturbances of the government, and what he knew of such a man. That no man is brought thither to accuse himself, is their rule; but to ask if he knew such a man, and what is become of him. Any man that owes allegiance to the king, ought not to refuse answering there. He looked not like an uneducated rustic man. No man behaves himself with more humanity than the king. But he never saw any gentleman more rude te another; throwing his head about-These were only questions concerning other persons, asked fairly by my lord chancellor. And be answered, Ask what questions you will, I wal answer you none.' Those common questions that he was asked, no man will deny to another. The Privy-Council may do what a court-leet may, quia male se gessit. It is a common thing to commit upon rude deportment; and his commitment was, because he was of an ill behaviour before his prince-the law allows reverence to the king. He beg present when this passed, he thought it his duty to acquaint you with it. 6 Mr. Williams stands not up to vindicate behaviour, but the rights of our liberties. He expected some particular certain cause fron the great minister (Williamson) of this man's commitment: he finds only suspicion of sedi tious practices: so general an allowance is not to be admitted. Men are not to be impr soned upon notions. If he were committed on the account of seditious practices, this is not the manner. No man is imprisoned but by lex terræ et judicium parium suorum; by the king's writ, not by verbal commandment |