privilege of coming before you in order that we might present the concept that could facilitate any conculsions that would invariably evolve from this Committee on Veterans' Affairs.

We are aware that the Beverly National Cemetery in Burlington County, N.J., was closed by executive order in the early part of February of this year. Congress is refusing to establish new cemeteries or to purchase additional land for existing ones. Tremendous costs have been experienced beyond the service that should be provided by Government agencies from public funds. Since the Government is not wholly receptive to the reeds of the existing 85 national cemeteries in the national cemetery system, there might be an approach to a concept whereby lands can be made available by contract with the Federal Government if and when the need is required for veterans.

Beverly National Cemetery, established in 1864, had approximately 39,000 graves. Under date of September 25, 1965, the Ocean County Memorial Park opened its cemetery on Silverton Road in Dover Township, Toms River, N.J., Ocean County. There are 44,408 spaces available in the land now presently dedicated as a non-sectionarian cemetery. A photocopy of the map and layout is here with me for your use and I will present it to you when I have finished with this presentation.

This cemetery can be extended to approximately 110,000 spaces by virtue of its having access to approximately 80 acres of land contiguous to its present cemetery. A substantial portion of this cemetery by contract can be made available for New Jersey and Philadelphia veterans for a minimal cost as compared with the present burdensome expensive national cemeteries. The location of this cemetery is in the central hub of the State of New Jersey on the Garden State Parkway. More specifically, it lies 56 miles from Atlantic City, 57 miles from the Philadelphia-Camden area, and 59 miles from Newark. It is almost completely equidistant from your three major focal points.

All main arteries and roads all over New Jersey, existing and newly planned, lead to this area. Incidentally, according to the Newark News in north Jersey, this is one of the fastest growing areas in all of New Jersey.

Being situated as it is, Ocean County Memorial Park could accommodate veterans from northern Jersey more adequately than did Beverly, in addition to receiving veterans from the south Jersey and Philadelphia areas.

Burial space for veterans and fallen war heroes can be made available in this memorial park. If the Federal Government now could agree to make available, based on need a minimum number of graves, let us say 2,000 per year, in the sections of the cemeteries specifically dedicated for veterans, this would assure the continuity of the veterans burial program for New Jersey and Pennsylvania. This could be provided for less than $90 per grave, including the perpetual maintenance which is the biggest expense going, the continual cost year after year of maintaining a cemetery.

In addition we can conceivably charge a fee of say in the area of $70 for the opening and the closing. The Government now provides this service to veterans in addition to the supply of monuments and flags free. Arrangements could be made for the supply of monuments and flags by the Government but installed by the operator at no additional cost to the Government.

This land is particularly suited for a burial ground in that it is dry and test borings have been made showing that in a greater part of the area water is found beyond a depth of 20 feet. Needless to say, gentlemen, private enterprise is always operated more economically than Government agencies. In the interests of taking a more practical approach toward the immediate needs of veterans and a more economic approach toward the disbursement of public funds, I ask that you strongly consider this concept.

Gentlemen, we are prepared to act now if given the order to do so. I want to thank you again for the honor and privilege of appearing before you. This is the first time I have ever had the occasion to do anything like this. Thank you very much.

Mr. SECREST. I take it from my mathematics, if they are right, gravesite costs, plus the actual burial, would run about $160?

Mr. MIELE. Yes, sir.

Mr. SECREST. Do you have any questions?

Mr. DULSKI. No, Mr. Chairman, I just want to repeat the same words I said to the other organizations. I commend them for taking the time out to present their views to the committee.

I also want to compliment you on your fine statement.

Mr. MIELE. Thank you very much.

Mr. SECREST. Mr. Duncan.

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes, sir.

Is it correct that you would supply a gravesite and burial for $160?

Mr. MIELE. That is right.

Mr. DUNCAN. Is that what you are currently charging?

Mr. MIELE. No, we are currently charging $150 per gravesite now to the public but on a volume arrangement we could provide this for, say, $90 per grave. Mr. DUNCAN. Then $90 per year for maintenance, is that right?

Mr. MIELE. No. That $90 includes the gravesite and it includes the perpetual maintenance of that gravesite until the end of time, let us say, for argument's sake.

Mr. DUNCAN. You mentioned that you could do it much cheaper than the Veterans' Administration. Do you know what the Federal Government is now spending for maintenance or the Army on maintenance of cemeteries?

Mr. MIELE. I am familiar with the expenditure made at Beverly National Cemetery and just their maintenance for this year, without many burials, they only have a few graves open to widows and spouses and what not, is in excess of over $200,000. If this is just a maintenance expense, certainly this will go on and on and on. This $90 charge per grave that we are talking about would pay for the grave and would pay for the perpetual maintenance of that grave.

Approximately, let us say, $8 to $10 of that $90 fee would go into a special perpetual fund, insuring the perpetual care of the graves.

Mr. DUNCAN. How many perpetual-care cemeteries are there in the country? Mr. MIELE. I do not know.

Mr. DUNCAN. You are just speaking for your particular area?

Mr. MIELE. I am speaking only for Ocean County Memorial Park and the New Jersey and Philadelphia area.

Mr. DUNCAN. Do you belong to a national association?

Mr. MIELE. I belong to the New Jersey Cemetery Association.

Mr. DUNCAN. According to testimony we had here from Colonel MacFarland of the Department of the Army last week, during 1965, for all cemeteries, approximately $8,855,000 was spent for maintenance, operation, and administration of the national cemetery system. That is the reason I was asking how you determined you could do it for much less than the Army, which you are apparently doing.

Mr. MIELE. Well

Mr. DUNCAN. I notice that the national cemetery in my hometown is certainly operated for less than what you indicated.

Mr. MIELE. This has been based on strictly Beverly. What the entire scope of the national cemetery costs are, I do not know. But considering just Beverly, and accommodating the Philadelphia-New York area, I am certain that we can do it a lot cheaper than the Government.

Mr. DUNCAN. How many graves do they have in Beverly?

Mr. MIELE. I believe 39,000 in Beverly.

Mr. DUNCAN. I have no further questions.

Mr. SECREST. Mr. Brown?

Mr. BROWN. There is one aspect of your proposal which I think would bother me and bother most of the veterans' organizations; that is, maintaining the integrity or the concept of a national cemetery. Do you feel that it is feasible that if some sort of a contractual arrangement were worked out with private cemeteries to meet the need which exists for gravesites, that there could be included in this concept the idea that this plot is a national cemetery, thatMr. MIELE. Most definitely.

Mr. BROWN. That it has the same characteristics and legal aspects, and so forth, as a national cemetery?

Mr. MIELE. Yes; absolutely.

Mr. BROWN. In effect, it would be a national cemetery but operated under contract by private enterprise?

Mr. MIELE. That is exactly correct.

Mr. BROWN. I think this needs to be explored. I think you have made a contribution in presenting this idea to the committee. Certainly the committee, I am sure, would want to be openminded about this. The really vital aspect of this is maintaining the integrity of this concept of the entitlement of a veteran to burial in a special site, one that has national significance as far as veterans are concerned for those who have served their country in time of war.

Mr. MIELE. Through proper exposure to the public and through proper public relations there is no question in my mind this could be considered a national cemetery, only operated through private enterprise.

Mr. BROWN. I have no further questions.

COUNSEL. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask, Are there any restrictions as to the use of the marker which is furnished by the Department of the Army today? Some cemeteries of your type require nothing above ground, perfectly flat.

Mr. MIELE. Let me put it to you this way: We are cognizant that Beverly uses what they call an upright marker. We presently as a memorial park use a flat marker. If for some reason this committee or any other committee feels that the upright marker is more in keeping with veterans' cemeteries, fine. We could use an upright marker. But we would be more disposed to use a flat marker. COUNSEL. Thank you.

Mr. SECREST. Thank you very much.

Mr. DULSKI. Mr. Chairman, before we conclude, one question came to my mind. Is it a cheaper operation having flat markers instead of upright?

Mr. MIELE. Yes; it is.

Mr. DULSKI. To the advantage of the contract?

Mr. MIELE. It may affect a contract. Yes. Your statement is correct. It is cheaper to maintain a cemetery with a flat monument than it is an upright.

Mr. DULSKI. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DUNCAN. One other question. I think Mr. Brown really touched on the key to this entire thing, the integrity of the veterans, a certain pride in being buried in a national cemetery. Even if it was twice the cost-I do not think it is— I think he hit on the key to this entire program.

Mr. MIELE. I would be perfectly willing to come back again, gentlemen, if you think I could be of any service to you.

Mr. BROWN. I suspect, if I may interject this, Mr. Chairman, that what you have proposed would have national significance if this were undertaken as a matter of policy. It should be fully explored not only by the veterans organizations but by the national associations speaking for the cemetery organizations throughout the country.

I do not know whether there has been any thought given to this on a national basis but I think you have certainly started the ball rolling here. Perhaps this is worthy of making some special effort, some special request to the national organizations representing the cemetery operators, to determine what their reactions would be to an idea of this sort.

Mr. MIELE. Thank you very much.

Mr. SECREST. Mr. Roberts, Mr. Miele has presented the proposition, which at least to me is the first I have heard of this, that his association would set aside 40,000 or whatever number of graves that they wanted in the private memorial cemetery, call it a national cemetery, do what we please, and they could make the plot available for about $90 and the opening and closing of the grave for $60, which would mean the whole would be $150 complete as far as the cemetery goes. It is at least to me a need.

Mr. ROBERTS. I am sorry to be late, Mr. Chairman, but I had two other subcommittee meetings going on in other places.

Mr. SECREST. I am sure that is true. There are several committees meeting now. COUNSEL. Mr. Chairman, in response to what Mr. Brown said about the National Cemetery Associations, I think perhaps the record should show that before these hearings started contact was made with their local office and they were told of these hearings and advised if they wished to testify we would be happy to hear them. To date we have not received a request for time to be heard though we do know that they are purchasing a transcript of these hearings.

Mr. MIELE. I would like to say that I am speaking on behalf of the Ocean County Memorial Park directed toward the interests of satisfying the immediate need of veterans in New Jersey and the Philadelphia area. In the light of this I would hope that you gentlemen act in some favorable fashion.

Mr. BROWN. We have it appears, more or less a crisis situation in that area. Your remarks are, therefore, extremely appropriate to this particular problem. I am not sure that the Congress acts as quickly as we should. Mr. ROBERTS. Mr. Chairman.

Are you not in some litigation now on this problem? Some lawsuit filed? Mr. MIELE. No sir; we are a brandnew, spanking brandnew park. We have not had any time to get into those kinds of difficulties.

Mr. BROWN. Possibly Mr. Roberts is referring to a suit filed by the veterans organizations.

Mr. SECREST. The Veterans Council of Philadelphia.

Mr. ROBERTS. Yes. I thought so.

Mr. SECREST. If there are no more questions we certainly want to thank you. The chairman of the full committee has received a letter from Mr. John M. Bailey of Fort Worth, Tex. which will be inserted at this point in the record if there is no objection. MOUNT OLIVET CEMETERY ASSOCIATION, Fort Worth, Tex., June 17, 1966.

Re establishment of new government cemeteries for veterans.

Hon. OLIN E. TEAGUE,
House of Representatives,
Washington, D.C.

DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN: In your letter of June 3 you indicated that I should have a statement, relative to my views and the views of the private cemeteries of America, in your hands by June 17. Our local Fort Worth newspaper carried several articles stating that you planned to be here for the Waggoner Carr Testimonial Dinner last night. I planned to catch you and visit with you while you were here. Waggoner told me that you were not able to attend due to pressing legislative matters.

My friends and associates in the cemetery industry have been keeping a very careful eye on the Congressional Hearings about new federal cemeteries. It is the concensus of their thinking, as well as mine, that we strongly support President Johnson's position in this area. We feel as though there is really nothing more that we can add to the testimony and reports you have received from the President's representatives.

We do feel keenly that at this time the national Congress should allocate all monies available towards the care of veterans' families and rehabilitation programs rather than to the programming of billions of dollars for federal cemeteries. I am deeply in your debt for the attention you have given to me and to those of us who are knowledgeable on the subject of cemeteries.

Sincerely yours,

JOHN T. BAILEY.

Mr. SECREST. Without objection, a letter from Mr. Joshua Eilberg, with a copy of House Resolution No. 56 of the House of Representatives of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania will be inserted at this point in the record.

COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS,

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA, Harrisburg, June 28, 1966.

House of Representatives, Congress of the United States,
Rayburn Building, Washington, D.C.

(Attention: Mr. Patterson, Chief Counsel).

DEAR MR. PATTERSON: Enclosed is a copy of House Resolution Number 56 (Pennsylvania General Assembly). If possible, I would like to have it entered into the official minutes of your hearing of Thursday, June 23d.

This resolution is in support of testimony presented on that day by leaders of veterans' organizations in the Greater Philadelphia area. I regret I was not able to be present at that time and hope that their testimony and this resolution will convey to the Committee the thinking of residents of Philadelphia and of Pennsylvania.

Very truly yours,

JOSHUA EILBERG.

[Enclosure]

THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF PENNSYLVANIA

HOUSE RESOLUTION NO. 56, SESSION OF 1966

Introduced by Messrs. Eilberg, Comer, Gallagher, Walsh, Ogilvie, Gremminger, Stone, Moran, Needham, Mrs. Brugger, Messrs. Lederer and Pezak, April 26, 1966

Referred to Committee on Rules, April 26, 1966

In the House of Representatives, April 26, 1966

There was established in the City of Philadelphia a National cemetery which was filled to capacity and closed for burials some ten years ago.

The National cemetery at Beverly, New Jersey, which has served for burials of decendents of the Delaware Valley area is almost filled and soon will be no longer usable for this purpose.

The National cemetery at Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, has very few vacant spaces for burials and soon will be closed.

Unless additional facilities are provided, in the not too distant future, those eligible for interment in National cemeteries will have to be buried in National cemeteries hundreds of miles from the Delaware Valley area.

Since the Delaware Valley area of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania played, and is playing a major role in all our war efforts, it would be fitting that additional locations be acquired to provide convenient final resting places for our National war heroes; therefore be it

Resolved, that the House of Representatives of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania memorializes the United States Congress to establish a new National cemetery in the Delaware Valley area; and be it further

Resolved, that a copy of this resolution be forwarded to each member of Congress from Pennsylvania and to the Honorable Joseph S. Clark and the Honorable Hugh Scott.

Mr. SECREST. Next Tuesday the committee will hear all of the major veterans organizations.

The committee is adjourned.

Mr. MIELE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

(Whereupon, at 10:50 a.m., the subcommittee adjourned.)

NEW JERSEY VETERANS CEMETERY COMMITTEE MINUTES, August 8, 1967 Time and Place: The first New Jersey Veterans Cemetery Committee meeting was held at the Upper Montclair Country Club at 6:30 p.m.

Members present: Members present were: Anthony P. Miele, Sr., Richard J. Miele, Joseph Samelsberger, Senator Richard R. Stout, Charles Kinney, Charles F. Sullivan.

Purpose: The purpose of this committee is to make Ocean County Memorial Park's burial lands available to the veterans of New Jersey, and to provide a service to the veteran that is commensurate with National Cemetery practices at prices that will be practical and economical to veterans and or their respective organizations.

Decisions: It was decided that before any policies could be formulated with respect to the above, a thorough study would have to be made in the following areas:

A. What the experience regarding past or proposed legislation has been with other private cemeteries in New Jersey that have attempted to create the market for the purchase of cemetery property by veterans.

B. What the cost would be to the veteran's family to send the deceased to Ocean County Memorial Park from various areas in the State.

C. What private cemeteries are doing today in the Eastern Region of the United States to merchandise property having the veteran in mind.

D. What the trustees of Ocean County Memorial Park can offer the veterans of New Jersey with regard to the following items:

1. Cost to the veteran of a single grave.

2. Cost to the veteran of a single grave (double depth).

3. Cost to the veteran of opening and closing.

4. Cost (if any) of installing the monument.

5. Possibility of giving one-half of double depth grave away free.

6. Cost of related cemetery services (if any)—use of platform, use of lowering device, use of tent, use of artificial grass, etc.

7. The investment of substantial capital in addition to what Ocean County Memorial Park presently has to offer to create and promote the National Cemetery concept-the flag, etc.

You can be sure that my dad and I will have the answers for you at our next meeting relative to these seven items.

E. Would the government supply the following as they have done in National Cemeteries:

1. The monument-flat or memorial type (if possible);

2. The flag; and

3. Firing squad and materials used in veterans ceremony.